Dollar Up

[jeff1234]

You are correct - USD earners have probably lost 30-50% of their buying power over the last few years.... Now that the cost of living has increased to close to that of other international cities, there is nothing very special about Bs As except its unique association with tango, steak and futbol. It's still an okay place to spend some time as long as you can leave whenever you want, but special? Not so much.

In my view BsAs costs are already equal to other major cities when you consider the quality of the goods and services available. If the same trend continues it may be only a couple of years before prices in BsAs make it seriously unattractive for expats and investors.

 

[Ries]

Prices alone may influence expats- but not investors. For instance, investors flock to cities far more expensive than Buenos Aires- they invest based on potential for growth, not historic price increases. Investors are dumping billions into Seattle and Vancouver, which are both far more expensive than Buenos Aires, for example, and, to my mind, the "quality" is often less.

I have said this many times, but I repeat- the people who will stay in Buenos Aires are here because they like what the city is, and what it can become, not because its cheap.
Because, there is no doubt, its not cheap anymore.

The cheap-seekers constantly move around the globe. I have seen this happen for the last 40 years, as the bargain hunters constantly move on. But many cities they have left behind still attract new people, because not everybody is seeking cheap.

Also- some people judge "quality of goods and services" strictly as mass market commercial products and brand names, others seek other things. There is NO city I am aware of in North America or Western Europe where I could buy an equivalent apartment to mine for less. But my criteria include original finishes, age and character of the building, neighborhood, and lack of global chains.
Other people have the opposite desires from me.

Every year I am in Buenos Aires, I have more friends doing amazing creative things, many of which simply do not happen in NYC or LA. And the costs for the culture and arts I am interested in are still a tiny fraction of US costs. I might go see a concert in Buenos Aires for 200 pesos. And a similar performer in a West Coast city is $50 to $80 USD, and drinks and food are double the price in the USA. But you may be completely uninterested in these musicians. The definition of "quality", once you get beyond corporate brand names, is completely subjective.
What I like about Buenos Aires is the relative lack of corporate brand names.

 

[julian63]

Prices alone may influence expats- but not investors. Yeah...and... For instance, investors flock to cities far more expensive than Buenos Aires- they invest based on potential for growth, not historic price increases. Investors are dumping billions into Seattle and Vancouver, which are both far more expensive than Buenos Aires, for example, and, to my mind, the "quality" is often less. Has,anyone made an issue of this? I don't believe anyone has argued that a rising cost of living causes investors to shun a city - if that is what you mean to say. Indeed, that would be counter-intuitive.

I have said this many times, but I repeat- the people who will stay in Buenos Aires are here because they like what the city is, and what it can become, not because its cheap. Because, there is no doubt, its not cheap anymore. But just above in your first phrase you said that prices alone may influence expats. Isn't it true that some expats who "like what the city is" will nevertheless leave because it has gotten too expensive?

The cheap-seekers constantly move around the globe. I have seen this happen for the last 40 years, as the bargain hunters constantly move on. But many cities they have left behind still attract new people, because not everybody is seeking cheap. Well, investors and the affluent aren't seeking cheap, but they are not your typical ex-pat, are they?
Also- some people judge "quality of goods and services" strictly as mass market commercial products and brand names, others seek other things. You are losing me. There is NO city I am aware of in North America or Western Europe where I could buy an equivalent apartment to mine for less. Oh, so you do like it here because your apt is cheap. I thought you were transcending that. But my criteria include original finishes, age and character of the building, neighborhood, and lack of global chains. Other people have the opposite desires from me. Global chains? I'm not sure what that means in this context of apts etc, but suffice it to say that while people do have different tastes, it is true most people would prefer to pay less for the type of crib they want to live in. Including yourself.

Every year I am in Buenos Aires, I have more friends doing amazing creative things, many of which simply do not happen in NYC or LA. Hmmm. It's great that your circle of friends doing creative things increases each year. Do you have a lot of friends in NYC or LA? Do you think you could provide some examples of creative things happening in Bs As that are not happening in NYC or LA ? And the costs for the culture and arts I am interested in are still a tiny fraction of US costs. I might go see a concert in Buenos Aires for 200 pesos. And a similar performer in a West Coast city is $50 to $80 USD, and drinks and food are double the price in the USA. Gee whiz, now you have reverted to talking about how good cheap is and what a magnet it can be for an ex-pat like yourself - I thought you were arguing cheap was irrelevant for a certain kind of ex-pat (the investor?). But you may be completely uninterested in these musicians. The definition of "quality", once you get beyond corporate brand names, is completely subjective.
What I like about Buenos Aires is the relative lack of corporate brand names. You mean corporate brand names in art? I'm lost! Pass the bong.

 

[Ries]

in the post above mine, the quote was "seriously unattractive for expats and investors"
so, yes, I would say that "anyone" not only said it, but JUST said it.

My main point is that not all "expats" are alike. Some are cheap-seekers, and some are not. In Jeff's post, he treats "expats" as a single group, who all move in unison. They dont.

"Typical" doesnt exist. However, I think we can agree that the three most common groups are-
1- cheap seekers. Who move on. SteveinBSAS is a good example- Sayulita-BA-Bahiavicinity- driven by finances to a large degree
2- love seekers. People who move to a place they know little or nothing about based on meeting someone and following them home.
3- culture, architecture, music, art and food seekers. Often much less driven primarily by cost. Tom and Nancy, myself and my wife, and at least a dozen other people I know from Canada, the US, Australia, and various European countries fit in this category.

Many commenters here fit in one of the first two, and assume EVERYBODY does. But many many people dont. I know a good half dozen or more foreign chefs, for example, who moved to Buenos Aires on purpose, and opened restaurants. The rising costs are a good thing for them- it means you can charge enough to cover expensive ingredients and complicated dishes. I know a lot of other expats in other fields who feel similarly.

I certainly appreciate the fact that my apartment, while not cheap, was a fraction of the cost of Paris or London or NYC or LA- I am not rich, but I am not driven solely by low cost. The two can certainly co-exist- an appreciation of the true value and the benefits of Buenos Aires are exactly my point.
Certainly I am unable to afford the lifestyle I have in Buenos Aires in many of those other cities.
But, again, thats not the same as being driven only by cost.

I am of the opinion, contrary to Jeff and many others, that Buenos Aires is still a very good deal for the money. But it is also unique, culturally, and if the expense was not balanced by the culture, I would not be here. So, no, I am not saying I am here because its so cheap- I am saying it is not only really amazing, but also a good value- which is constantly denied by a group of regular posters here.
I think it is clear that I am here for different reasons, and I disagree that it is so expensive that everybody will leave soon.

Corporate brands, in reference to global chains in retail, which have completely ruined many cities. I was in rural Italy a few years ago, and came across villages where half the 400 year old buildings were full of chain stores- Benetton, in every town of 1000. The USA is overrun with crappy chains. To me, there is a huge benefit and value of being in walking distance of a half dozen familly owned greengrocers, fresh pasta stores, butchers, liquor stores, coffee shops, restaurants, art supply stores, book stores, and on and on. I buy virtually nothing from global chains in Buenos Aires, and, mostly, manage to avoid local cadenas as well. The occasional unavoidable appliance purchase from Fravega or similar, but, in general, the family owned businesses, from retail up to wholesale, are a big attraction to me.

As far as global investors, I think that is rarer in Argentina, due to the many barriers to equal access. Again, I am happy about that. I have to deal with the utility companies, like everybody else, but beyond that, I have no desire for Euro or American chains. But I have seen a steady flow of Spanish speaking investors putting money into smaller businesses in Argentina, and think that is due to the inherent desirablity of the city, not its cheapness. In fact, I have seen the opposite- I know Argentines who bought real estate in Miami when the market crashed there in 2008- which WAS a case of investors chasing cheap, but not of investors abandoning Argentina.

In general, I stand by my basic premise-
there are many expats, and investors, who are drawn to Buenos Aires because of its character, not its cheapness.
I dont believe that there will be a huge exodus if prices continue to rise.

 

[Ries]

in the post above mine, the quote was "seriously unattractive for expats and investors"
so, yes, I would say that "anyone" not only said it, but JUST said it.

My main point is that not all "expats" are alike. Some are cheap-seekers, and some are not. In Jeff's post, he treats "expats" as a single group, who all move in unison. They dont.

"Typical" doesnt exist. However, I think we can agree that the three most common groups are-
1- cheap seekers. Who move on. SteveinBSAS is a good example- Sayulita-BA-Bahiavicinity- driven by finances to a large degree
2- love seekers. People who move to a place they know little or nothing about based on meeting someone and following them home.
3- culture, architecture, music, art and food seekers. Often much less driven primarily by cost. Tom and Nancy, myself and my wife, and at least a dozen other people I know from Canada, the US, Australia, and various European countries fit in this category.

Many commenters here fit in one of the first two, and assume EVERYBODY does. But many many people dont. I know a good half dozen or more foreign chefs, for example, who moved to Buenos Aires on purpose, and opened restaurants. The rising costs are a good thing for them- it means you can charge enough to cover expensive ingredients and complicated dishes. I know a lot of other expats in other fields who feel similarly.

I certainly appreciate the fact that my apartment, while not cheap, was a fraction of the cost of Paris or London or NYC or LA- I am not rich, but I am not driven solely by low cost. The two can certainly co-exist- an appreciation of the true value and the benefits of Buenos Aires are exactly my point.
Certainly I am unable to afford the lifestyle I have in Buenos Aires in many of those other cities.
But, again, thats not the same as being driven only by cost.

I am of the opinion, contrary to Jeff and many others, that Buenos Aires is still a very good deal for the money. But it is also unique, culturally, and if the expense was not balanced by the culture, I would not be here. So, no, I am not saying I am here because its so cheap- I am saying it is not only really amazing, but also a good value- which is constantly denied by a group of regular posters here.
I think it is clear that I am here for different reasons, and I disagree that it is so expensive that everybody will leave soon.

Corporate brands, in reference to global chains in retail, which have completely ruined many cities. I was in rural Italy a few years ago, and came across villages where half the 400 year old buildings were full of chain stores- Benetton, in every town of 1000. The USA is overrun with crappy chains. To me, there is a huge benefit and value of being in walking distance of a half dozen familly owned greengrocers, fresh pasta stores, butchers, liquor stores, coffee shops, restaurants, art supply stores, book stores, and on and on. I buy virtually nothing from global chains in Buenos Aires, and, mostly, manage to avoid local cadenas as well. The occasional unavoidable appliance purchase from Fravega or similar, but, in general, the family owned businesses, from retail up to wholesale, are a big attraction to me.

As far as global investors, I think that is rarer in Argentina, due to the many barriers to equal access. Again, I am happy about that. I have to deal with the utility companies, like everybody else, but beyond that, I have no desire for Euro or American chains. But I have seen a steady flow of Spanish speaking investors putting money into smaller businesses in Argentina, and think that is due to the inherent desirablity of the city, not its cheapness. In fact, I have seen the opposite- I know Argentines who bought real estate in Miami when the market crashed there in 2008- which WAS a case of investors chasing cheap, but not of investors abandoning Argentina.
I actually think there are big opportunities for investing in products for export here, particularly in fashion, shoes, leather, and some metalworking products. The big barrier is the export cost- the products are quality, and reasonably priced for their market niches. I actually knew an argentine couple in the 90s in LA who flew back every couple of months and brought 4 checked bags full of shoes, and sold them for triple.

In general, I stand by my basic premise-
there are many expats, and investors, who are drawn to Buenos Aires because of its character, not its cheapness.
I dont believe that there will be a huge exodus if prices continue to rise.

 

[garryl]

Tango, steak futbo, and other things are still good, but at a higher prices now (steak, wine and other things). Many Argentines who visit US and Europe feel it's cheaper there. It's important you can leave whenever you want, that makes you want to come back more. If you can not leave, you are stuck, that can be a problem.

 

[garryl]

I guess I am a cheap, love and culture seeker, by the definition above

 

[Rich One]

Most comments above refer to the dollar value of dining, housing, entertainment, Architecture, Theater, Cultural life in Bs. As. . No mention of The People, such wonderful mix of local and European ethnic backgrounds. A crucible of races.

Some Expats love Bs. As. for this very reason, they travel to meet local People. Some expats love Choripan, empanadas, wines under $50 pesos, local pizza, milongas, and friendly people....!

Some expats may consider Cheaper living in a village in the mountains of Ecuador , Chiang Mai, Belize, an island off the coast of Panama, Costa Rica or La Paz Bolivia as less expensive places to live than Bs. As. But what about the local culture...!

Also Bs. As is not Argentina must compare apples and apples....!! Compare Villacamba Ecuador? with La Falda in Cordoba...!

 

[jeff1234]

Prices alone may influence expats- but not investors.

In all the years I've been reading this forum, this may be the most inaccurate comment that I've seen.
Do you buy stocks in companies who's products are overpriced relative to competitors?

 

[Rich One]

P

In all the years I've been reading this forum, this may be the most inaccurate comment that I've seen.
Do you buy stocks in companies who's products are overpriced relative to competitors?

Prices alone do influence expats on a budget..
Investors that invest in Tokyo or Moscu are not dissuaded by Prices.
I buy Mcdonald's stock maybe their burgers are overpriced who knows.