Has Argentina Become Worse Or Better for Foreign Retirees recently?

[MarshallE]

Argentina can, and does compete at a level of well designed, mid level goods that are good quality but not "brand name"- clothing, shoes, jewelry, kitchen goods, knives, builders hardware, some sporting goods, and so on. The global market for exactly the kind of things Argentina does well has been growing.

in terms of cars, you couldnt be more wrong. All the Toyota Hi-lux pickups for South America are made here. 180,000 a year. And now they are making, and exporting, the HiAce van as well, with a target of 10,000 a year.
Currently Chevrolet, Citroen, Fiat, Ford, Mercedes, Nissan, Peugot, Renault, Toyota, Volkswagen, and several chinese electric vehicle companies,have factories in Argentina, all of which export high value added quality modern products.

nobody but china makes iphones or laptops or tv sets.
Argentina is completely normal in that respect.

Any products that can be produced locally and are truly of a high quality and a reasonable cost wouldn't need tariffs and other forms of protectionism to compete on the free market then. If they are only reasonable when foreign imports cost double or triple what they should cost otherwise due to protectionist trade measures, then we're not talking about an even playing field.

The automobile industry is completely artificial, without protectionist measures and imported cars costing 2X or more there would be 0 cars manufactured in Argentina. Nobody is complaining that Australia, Switzerland, Chile etc don't have a local auto industry, and have specialized on other industries that are advantageous for them. Japan makes 9MM cars per year, China makes 35MM. Argentina simply doesn't have the scale to compete. In lieu of immiserating 45 million Argentines with expensive cars lacking in features and safety, imports should be opened up. Again, if the products made locally truly are good value for the money, they don't need any protections to begin with.

You already understand that Argentina is in no position to be involved in the electronics manufacturing industry, but that doesn't stop the Peronists from trying! By artificially making phones/TVs/home appliances etc cost double to triple the price for 45 Million Argentines, they "created" a few jobs in Tierra del Fuego. Just run that logic for everything else and you'll quickly see why Argentina is in the position that it is in today.

 

[ArgentinaVet]

The automobile industry is completely artificial, without protectionist measures and imported cars costing 2X or more there would be 0 cars manufactured in Argentina. Nobody is complaining that Australia, Switzerland, Chile etc don't have a local auto industry, and have specialized on other industries that are advantageous for them. Japan makes 9MM cars per year, China makes 35MM. Argentina simply doesn't have the scale to compete. In lieu of immiserating 45 million Argentines with expensive cars lacking in features and safety, imports should be opened up. Again, if the products made locally truly are good value for the money, they don't need any protections to begin with.

This is not true.

Toyota manufactures the Hilux pickup truck and SW4 suv in Zarate, Provincia of Buenos Aires and exports more than 3/4 of the production.

Ford manufactures the Ranger pickup truck in Pacheco, Provincia of Buenos Aires and exports more than 3/4 of the production.

Volkswagen manufactures the Amarok pickup truck in Pacheco, Provincia de Buenos Aires and exports 50%+ of the production.

All three manufacturers have invested in a combined total of more than $1 billion USD in their plants over the last few years. The Brazilian market has more than 230 million people, is increasingly wealthy and that's where most of the exports go. The trucks are priced at least 20% more expensive in USD than they sell for in the Argentine market.

 

[Rich One]

Vietnam could lay a claim.

Certainly Vietnam has a potential as a site to consider to move to . However the major savings would only be perhaps US$300 dollars/month in apt. rental, since food for a retired single person is not a major item. Does that saving compensate for the change in culture, language, continent, etc

Seems like finding a small studio within Mercosur, Southern Brazil or Paraguay, even perhaps inland Argentina, would cost the same or slightly more than living in Vietnam. With the clear advantage of the language, culture, location, etc. And a much lower cost of living compared with living in Buenos Aires, Avenida Santa Fe, Recoleta.

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[Ries]

I think until World War 1 Argentina was a powerhouse because they would export a lot to Europe.
The U-boats essentially shut down transatlantic trade.

In the 50s (I think), the opening of the Panama Canal and subsequent upgrades to it reduced the traffic that went around South America. Prior Argentina was a major stop on trade routes, warehousing, ship maintenance etc. This ended.

And then came the protectionist policies which protected industries and owners.

I think up until the 80s though Argentina still had the largest GDP in South America.

For the wealthy, sure. BA is full of literal palaces built by the few thousand very rich. For the 90%, it was a place where you could get a job, but the middle class was far better off in the 1950 s. Read about the semana tragica…

Any products that can be produced locally and are truly of a high quality and a reasonable cost wouldn't need tariffs and other forms of protectionism to compete on the free market then. If they are only reasonable when foreign imports cost double or triple what they should cost otherwise due to protectionist trade measures, then we're not talking about an even playing field.

The automobile industry is completely artificial, without protectionist measures and imported cars costing 2X or more there would be 0 cars manufactured in Argentina. Nobody is complaining that Australia, Switzerland, Chile etc don't have a local auto industry, and have specialized on other industries that are advantageous for them. Japan makes 9MM cars per year, China makes 35MM. Argentina simply doesn't have the scale to compete. In lieu of immiserating 45 million Argentines with expensive cars lacking in features and safety, imports should be opened up. Again, if the products made locally truly are good value for the money, they don't need any protections to begin with.

You already understand that Argentina is in no position to be involved in the electronics manufacturing industry, but that doesn't stop the Peronists from trying! By artificially making phones/TVs/home appliances etc cost double to triple the price for 45 Million Argentines, they "created" a few jobs in Tierra del Fuego. Just run that logic for everything else and you'll quickly see why Argentina is in the position that it is in today.

your logic makes no sense. Argentina exports hilux trucks to all of south america. How would a lower tariff rate in Argentina do anything but INCREASE those exports.
Same thing with the Mercedes vans, the Ford pickups, and, yes, the Fiat Cronos, which is currently exported to several south american countries.
Argentina produces, in most years lately, MORE cars than Italy.
Which, until very recently, was outright subsidizing Italian automakers to more than $5billion a year, and just last year, spent another $600 million subsidizing electric cars.
Should Italy just give up, and stop making cars, because they have protectionist measures and subsidies?

My point about imports is that the chinese imports are so cheap they drive local manufacturers, who are not making equivalent products, out of business.
A cheap chinese faucet is very inferior to fv grifferia, but once the local factories are gone, thats what you will get- extreme poor quality.
I have seen this in my lifetime of working in manufacturing, architecture, design, and construction in the USA- mid range priced decent products get driven out of distribution networks by cheap chinese knockoffs, and the factories close, leaving us with nothing but really cheap crap.
I have seen this again and again in so many market segments.

 

[JMHarris]

A note regarding Temu as an example of cheap and inferior products manufactured in factories that are more like prisons:

Is this what we want for the world? Is this how a country becomes competitive? Is this how the invisible hand works?

 

[Ries]

I have never seen a list of the successes of austerity.
the closest I have seen is the example of the baltic states, in 2009.
And they had had years of good gdp increases every year, a black swan event, and then growth again, because of their proximity to europe, high standard of education, and relative lack of corruption.
Not a great example of universal application of austerity.

And economists now think that there was a lot more going on than just austerity-

Austerity in the Baltic States During the Global Financial Crisis

The Baltic states were arguably the countries most severely affected by the global financial crisis. This article discusses the boom preceding the crisis, the ensuing austerity policies and the economic effects of these policies. All three countries maintained fixed exchange rates, but the...

www.intereconomics.eu

 

[JMHarris]

I have never seen a list of the successes of austerity.
the closest I have seen is the example of the baltic states, in 2009.
And they had had years of good gdp increases every year, a black swan event, and then growth again, because of their proximity to europe, high standard of education, and relative lack of corruption.
Not a great example of universal application of austerity.

And economists now think that there was a lot more going on than just austerity-

Austerity in the Baltic States During the Global Financial Crisis

The Baltic states were arguably the countries most severely affected by the global financial crisis. This article discusses the boom preceding the crisis, the ensuing austerity policies and the economic effects of these policies. All three countries maintained fixed exchange rates, but the...

www.intereconomics.eu

Mayor Mandami just balanced the NYC budget without cutting any social services.

Seems like some folks on here (not you, @Ries) might want to take a look at Naomi Klein's book The Shock Doctrine. Austerity doesn't work in the long-run. It does not foster a strong foundation for long-term economic growth and development.

 

[SlowWalker]

Mayor Mandami just balanced the NYC budget without cutting any social services.

Seems like some folks on here (not you, @Ries) might want to take a look at Naomi Klein's book The Shock Doctrine. Austerity doesn't work in the long-run. It does not foster a strong foundation for long-term economic growth and development.

1) Mamdani's budget is based on:
- $7.6B in state aid
- Only $570M in additional taxes from Wealthy Property owners
- $1.8B in projected savings across the department
- One off Revenue of $2.8B
which includes:
- Delaying $2.3B in Pension payments
- Asset sales
- Utilizing funds not spent in previous years budget and transferring to this year
- Utilizing funds for capital spending into this years budget and delaying capital projects

So its interesting how you support some of the same actions that Milei is doing when its done under the banner of Democratic Socialist.
So we still need to see what savings and sales and other assumptions come to fruition and the budget as it is is already setting up a major budget shortfall for 2028. Ontop of those savings, he also introduced new spending measures. Again, we shall see. I wish them the best of luck.

2) Again you are promoting this book as if she suggests novel theory of utilizing deficit spending which I have already explained to you is standard practice globally and the issue why Argentina can't just do it. Again, you can print all the money you want and payoff the debt meanwhile currency loses value and is inflated away (this is what she meant by inflationary pressure and you like to ignore this). Argentina is a pretty good example.

I have never seen a list of the successes of austerity.
the closest I have seen is the example of the baltic states, in 2009.
And they had had years of good gdp increases every year, a black swan event, and then growth again, because of their proximity to europe, high standard of education, and relative lack of corruption.
Not a great example of universal application of austerity.

And economists now think that there was a lot more going on than just austerity-

Austerity in the Baltic States During the Global Financial Crisis

The Baltic states were arguably the countries most severely affected by the global financial crisis. This article discusses the boom preceding the crisis, the ensuing austerity policies and the economic effects of these policies. All three countries maintained fixed exchange rates, but the...

www.intereconomics.eu

I have provided you with Canada, Sweden Ireland and Baltic States. You can continue to selectively ignore.
Whether you agree or disagree with Thatcher, it is similar to cutting in a household and sometimes restructuring corporations, it is needed. It reestablishes a firm foundation for the future. The benefits being gained now, will still benefit a leftist government should they win in 2,4,6 years.

Trying to reason away why its not is probably not the right strategy, particularly if one is trying to suggest because of lack of corruption. Address the corruption then not the austerity measures.

For the wealthy, sure. BA is full of literal palaces built by the few thousand very rich. For the 90%, it was a place where you could get a job, but the middle class was far better off in the 1950 s. Read about the semana tragica…

I am reading and will continue to.
That doesn't change the fact in that time much of the economy was based on agriculture production and exportation to Europe. It was good times until the market got closed off during the wars. The rich will always be ok.

About the semana tragica, interesting that it started off with a metal shop that appeared to be Italian family owned and eventually publicly owned on London Stock Exchange yet this incident overlapped with a pogrom in Buenos Aires blaming the Jews for it. 107 years later and its still the same stereotypes going around the world.

your logic makes no sense. Argentina exports hilux trucks to all of south america. How would a lower tariff rate in Argentina do anything but INCREASE those exports.
Same thing with the Mercedes vans, the Ford pickups, and, yes, the Fiat Cronos, which is currently exported to several south american countries.
Argentina produces, in most years lately, MORE cars than Italy.
Which, until very recently, was outright subsidizing Italian automakers to more than $5billion a year, and just last year, spent another $600 million subsidizing electric cars.
Should Italy just give up, and stop making cars, because they have protectionist measures and subsidies?

My point about imports is that the chinese imports are so cheap they drive local manufacturers, who are not making equivalent products, out of business.
A cheap chinese faucet is very inferior to fv grifferia, but once the local factories are gone, thats what you will get- extreme poor quality.
I have seen this in my lifetime of working in manufacturing, architecture, design, and construction in the USA- mid range priced decent products get driven out of distribution networks by cheap chinese knockoffs, and the factories close, leaving us with nothing but really cheap crap.
I have seen this again and again in so many market segments.

I think he was saying it was just having import tariffs/duties that supported the industry.
I don't think that is 100% the case here. Argentinian labor is not as expensive as other labor.
Additionally, the automotive plants are very expensive and time consuming to build. You can't just easily move it to another country, so therefore, savings need to be substantial to justify it. Hence the reason wjy the manufacturers are not relocating all their plants from Canada to the US, at least for now.

But to MarshallE's point, the Australian government decided that it wasn't worth the subsidies for too few jobs and they stopped them. At that point it just wasn't viable on top of the higher Australian labor costs and production of less desired models. The annual subsidies per number of jobs was pretty high. Much cheaper to just put on welfare knowing most will end up finding other jobs.

The same is the case for protecting domestic industries. If they make good products or services at comparable costs, then they will compete globally. If they don't adjust they will fail. Some will succeed and others will fail. It is not an all or nothing scenario. In the US and Canada you still have domestic brands and manufacturing.

What you are also highlighting is a cultural issue. In North America consumer material consumption is super high. And they like to rotate, season clothes, annual new models etc. Quality is less of an issue for a few reasons:
1) They don't have the money to purchase higher quality brands
2) They rather not spend more on higher quality brands reducing overall variety of consumption and rather just replace more frequently
North America is also heavily reliant on debt. Not just public but private debt.

If you look at Europe they will spend more on less but the quality is far better. a $50 t-shirt that will last 20 years and not fade or the graphic/print fall off, or an espresso maker or pot that will become a family heirloom, rather than a cheap set that will be replaced in 2 years. A guy I know that was a business consultant explained that is a primary reason why when companies try to cross the Atlantic in either direction, they often fail. Americans favor service over quality and Europeans favor quality over service.

In Argentina, I have found that they have much less options of most things but the quality is typically the brand name or if domestic reasonably good quality and will last. But if I compare a meat grinder I have which is used in many butcher shops, it is far more expensive than what it would cost in North America, and it wouldn't pass QA in North America. The cast finish isn't nicely polished and smooth but rather rougher etc. This wouldn't be acceptable in North America.

 

[Ries]

The Australian auto industry is an interesting one to contrast with Argentina.
In its best year ever, 1974, Australia made about the same number of cars, just under 500,000, as Argentina did in 2024.
Argentinas top year for production, 2011, almost 40 years after Australia started its decline, was half again as big as the best Australia ever did.
And the Australian car industry was essentially killed in the late 70s early 80s when the government dropped tariffs on imports, right at the same time the Japanese achieved quality parity, and in may cases, superiority, with US and European cars.
Whereas, the auto industry in Argentina is one that would actually profit from lower tariffs.
The Australians exported fewer cars than Argentina, and oddly enough, it was the Australian Toyota factory, again, which was the largest single exporter of cars from Australia, but I believe their highest volume year of exports was around half the number currently exported from Argentina.
so, historically, Argentina has made more cars per year, and exported more cars, than Australia.
And, at its peak, the Australian government subsidy of the Auto industry was around $500 million/yr, vs $5Billion the Italians spent in 2024.
Peanuts, in other words.
I cant find any info online of direct government subsidies to automakers by the Argentine govt, unlike, say, Italy. Instead, they bestow great gifts like 0% export duties on exports- something that most normal countries do always...
and reduced, but not removed, tariffs on some parts that are imported.


And, one thing seldom discussed- in addition to import tariffs, Argentina has a very complicated web of EXPORT restrictions, tariffs, costs, and frictional systemic issues that mean Argentine exports are hobbled in the world market.

Which is something Milei has done virtually nothing to change- because something like a third of the Argentine government tax income is export taxes, especially on the big ag and raw material exports.
So he doesnt want to kill the golden goose, and thus, its very difficult for smaller local companies to export.
The government should be making it easy to export value added manufactured products, but instead, its quite difficult.

 

[JMHarris]

Again you are promoting this book as if she suggests novel theory of utilizing deficit spending which I have already explained to you is standard practice globally and the issue why Argentina can't just do it. Again, you can print all the money you want and payoff the debt meanwhile currency loses value and is inflated away (this is what she meant by inflationary pressure and you like to ignore this). Argentina is a pretty good example.

Inflationary pressures come from many different directions, deficit spending is just one.

Also, governments are not households (or businesses for that matter). Governments can have deficits if the money that creates the deficit is used strictly for long-standing social services (like Social Security) or long-term economic gains in technology, competitiveness, and education.

Education is key to gains in technology and competitiveness.

Miliei & Co. believe education brain washes you to become a Marxist. Really? Who on earth is a Marxist these days? Not even Xi Jingping is a Marxist. A Communist yes.

Because I'm kuka (and proudly so), I'm called a marxista, leninista, stalinista, maoista, comunista, etc. Evidently, I'm all of them. How can I possibly be all of them? But because I believe that government spending must include spending in social services, otherwise the government is breaking the social contract with its citizens, I'm all that and more.

Meanwhile, anyone can call me anything they want to. I don't care. I know who I am.