Hey Paul NL: talking about violent societies

auntieapple

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Quote bigbadwolf:
"What about serial killers or pedophiles? Don't seem to hear or read much in the news about these two crimes but they are daily events in the USA."
I shall tell you why there are no statistics for paedophiles in Argentina or headlines in the news.
Sexual child abuse in families here in Argentina is RAMPANT. Let me also tell you there is not one OFFICIAL agency that protects children from incestuous or other sexual child abuse. I was flabberghasted when I tried to find an agency here to help someone I know in Argentina with a child that had been sexually abused by her father. There is no government agency that deals with this. Unlike the UK and the US that have police agencies that deal specifically with child abuse. In Argentina there is nothing.
Plus, even when you get before a judge and you have a doctors report its still almost impossible to get a block on contact between the child and the parent that is an abuser.
So returning to the point bigbadwolf. There are no stories of child abuse here because they are buried (actually they are never written) but that does not mean there are not thousands of paedophiles commiting vile crimes on here on children in fact I bet the true statistic are horrifying!. Its just that NOBODY has the balls to discuss or try to resolve it in Argentina.
apples and oranges, who cares!
 

sergio

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Auntie, you have hit the nail on the head. So many things are buried here! The US and the UK are open societies that go out of their way to expose corruption and injustice, hardly the case here. The Fr Grassi case (a priest accused of molesting many children...apparently the trial has not ended after several years) was a shock to Argentines. The subject of child sexual abuse was just not discussed here. Just based on anecdotal information passed on to me by people I know, it seems that sexual abuse of children is not uncommon.
 

TatanBsAs

Registered
"auntieapple" said:
Quote bigbadwolf:
"What about serial killers or pedophiles? Don't seem to hear or read much in the news about these two crimes but they are daily events in the USA."
I shall tell you why there are no statistics for paedophiles in Argentina or headlines in the news.
Sexual child abuse in families here in Argentina is RAMPANT. Let me also tell you there is not one OFFICIAL agency that protects children from incestuous or other sexual child abuse. I was flabberghasted when I tried to find an agency here to help someone I know in Argentina with a child that had been sexually abused by her father. There is no government agency that deals with this. Unlike the UK and the US that have police agencies that deal specifically with child abuse. In Argentina there is nothing.
Plus, even when you get before a judge and you have a doctors report its still almost impossible to get a block on contact between the child and the parent that is an abuser.
So returning to the point bigbadwolf. There are no stories of child abuse here because they are buried (actually they are never written) but that does not mean there are not thousands of paedophiles commiting vile crimes on here on children in fact I bet the true statistic are horrifying!. Its just that NOBODY has the balls to discuss or try to resolve it in Argentina.
apples and oranges, who cares!
You said... "Sexual child abuse in families here in Argentina is RAMPANT" please provide your source of information.
 

TatanBsAs

Registered
"sergio" said:
Auntie, you have hit the nail on the head. So many things are buried here! The US and the UK are open societies that go out of their way to expose corruption and injustice, hardly the case here. The Fr Grassi case (a priest accused of molesting many children...apparently the trial has not ended after several years) was a shock to Argentines. The subject of child sexual abuse was just not discussed here. Just based on anecdotal information passed on to me by people I know, it seems that sexual abuse of children is not uncommon.
Once again this is a clear example on how an expat seems to know more about Argentine society then the Argentines themselves. I wonder how long some of the expats have lived here, to tell us how we are. And to be honest comparisons are hateful, because no two countries are alike.


Yes, we are a third world country, nobody denies this. But the way you describe the U.S... it is just one sided. Either you are completely blind or you are just intentionally trying to ignore some clear, self evident facts so as to support your weak or non existent arguments.


There is a complete double standard in the U.S. with regards to the standards they supposedly set for themselves and the ones they set for the rest of the world. This arrogance is what makes people around the world dislike the US. I honestly cannot speak about the UK because I have not been there. But if people in the UK have the arrogance of auntieapple, I would rather hang out here with the noise, fumes, dog s…t, etc. Auntiapple, from what I understand, you are married to an argentine, have you ever wondered that he is who is he is –in part- thanks to the country he is from? The fact that you are living here supports in some way what I just wrote.


Sergio, what you said also depends on how broad your concept of corruption and justice is. Let me give you some examples -please don’t take it personal-:
the Patriot Act I and II, Guantanamo detainees, Dixie Chicks being threatened for criticizing bush, Bush elected as president thanks to the Supreme Court, the double standard of defining terrorism when it hits your own backyard -before anybody says I am justifying 9/11 I tell you I don’t believe in violence- and then going ahead and bombing the hell out of a third world country just for its oil and knowing that it had no connection whatsoever with the 9/11 attack and during all that time ignoring the fact that your country helped him -Hussein- to fight Khomeini´s Iran during the 80´s.


Your lies in the UN about weapons of mass destruction. Your plans for torturing "foreign" citizens, not providing due process of law in countries like Pakistan, etc. Your criticism of Castro, when you aided, backed financially and supported the likes of the Shah, Pinochet, Videla, Somoza, Batista, and others on this continent -please see the CIA declassified files-.
Criticize and supposedly fight illegal immigration when everybody knows that a substantial part of the US. Economy is based on their labor. Criticize crime in Argentina -a third world country- even though statistics show your country as a very violent one. Compare it with Haiti or India for that matter.
Criticize Argentine for the fumes and smog but fail to address that the US is not a part of the Kyoto Protocol.
Criticize Argentine for being a violent country, but fail to address that the US is not a part of the International Criminal Court or demands immunity for its troops abroad. Another example is the American Servicemembers' Protection Act
We are constantly criticized –rightfully so- for supporting and aiding Nazis when some of the major Nazi intelligence officers were allowed into the US in order to work against the USSR.
Finance and back Colombia militarily to fight drugs, when you are the country with highest drug consumption rate in the world Remember Nancy Reagan´s “Just Say No” campaign. By the way this is also a crime, and drug trafficking is usually linked to violent crimes..
Your high schools are full of clicks generating a violent environment etc. Columbine.


So please, cut the bs., open your eyes and broaden your perspective on things. Argentina is not the greatest place in the world but neither is the US. The fact that you live here proves my point.
Before anybody has a stroke and or/throws a fit –for example Auntieapple- I would appreciate that they address what I just wrote.
Igor please don’t erase what I wrote.
Tatan








 

sergio

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I will not defend the war in Iraq since I was opposed to it before it even began. That it was started purely for oil I would question, however. I believe there were various motives of which protection of the vast oil reserves was just one. Defense of Israel, a naive belief that Islamic extremism could be tamed by democratizing Iraq, etc. I don't want to get into a discussion of the war, however, especially since I have disagreed with it even before its start. I also agree that the US Patriot Act and Homeland Security Acts are excessive and have created an unfortunate isolationist atmosphere in the US. I would assert, however, that every country has a right to defend itself and to protect itself against attack. What happened to the US on 9/11 was shocking and justifies reasonable defense measures. Just how those measures should be implemented is debatable. I agree that the Bush government, supported by Congress, has not been very adept in implementing a coherent security strategy. As for US policy regarding Latin America, it too has been flawed. Yes, there has been intervention where it was probably not justified. It's difficult to say what would have happened had the US not supported right wing, anti Communist regimes. Would Communism have spread? I honestly can't say what would have been the right policy though I agree that the US has not always advanced the best foreign policy. Drug problems, crime and other social problems in the US? Yes, these exist – especially in the inner cities. You are right that there have been incidents of mentally disturbed students going on a rampage and killing classmates and teachers. The US is country of 300 million people, however, and these incidents – though disturbing – are hardly the norm. There have been incidents of random shootings, albeit not as grave, even in Argentina. Environment? You are right that Bush did not agree with the Kyoto Protocol. So what? What makes this agreement some sort of sacred, holy document? The reality is that the US has environmental protection laws that are far stricter than those of most countries. The most casual observer has only to walk through any city to see that there is far less pollution than here, far more concern for environmentalism, etc. As far as saying that the US is a perfect country, I never said this and I don’t recall anyone else posting this. What I would say is that there is far more respect for the dignity of the individual in the US than there is here. While we can argue that there is “corruption” in the broad philosophical scheme of things (i.e. the war in Iraq etc.) it is simply NOT true that there is much corruption at all in every day daily life in the US. The government does not cheat its citizens. Government services are provided in a generally very efficient way, taxes are assessed and paid by most citizens, Social Security pensions are good and paid without unnecessary red tape, judges are seldom corrupt and if they are caught behaving improperly they are removed and punished. The legal system, while too litigious in my opinion (perhaps a sign of respect for human rights) works. There is, overall, a sense of well being in the US that does not exist here. There is a sense that one can live one’s life without obsessing about the economy, with worrying about what the politicians are doing and without fear of an economic disaster - without fear that the rules of the game will be changed overnight. A society that respects human rights must assure its people that there will be stability, justice and consistency. Argentina assures its citizens none of these. Americans know that as much they dislike President Bush the system will survive him because his powers are limited by a sound constitutional system with strong checks and balances, something completely lacking here. The US is not a perfect society, you are quite right, however it has many virtues that you fail to recognize. In the end, however, the issue for expats in Argentina is less how Argentina compares with the US but how Argentina can be a better society than it currently is. Each expat has his/her own reasons for being here. Whatever those reasons are is quite personal. The fact is that as human beings, each individual has a right to express opinions and to offer suggestions as to how the place in which he/she lives can be better. I see no reason for hostile attacks on the US or any other country. Criticisms of the many problems in Argentina, something daily commented on by the Argentine press, do not have to be met by anger and taunts that every expat must be sent back to his native land because he does not agree with everything he/she experiences in Argentina. Having lived here for many years, as someone who pays taxes and employs people and who makes a positive contribution to the society, I have as much right as anyone else in this country to express an opinion that differs from yours. Tatan, your reservation for a ticket out of Argentina is not at all funny because you mean it! I find that sad and disturbingly narrow minded
 

Elpanada

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"The legal system, while too litigious in my opinion (perhaps a sign of respect for human rights) works."Does the US not have the highest % of any country of people behind bars? Yes it does."While we can argue that there is “corruption” in the broad
philosophical scheme of things (i.e. the war in Iraq etc.) it is simply
NOT true that there is much corruption at all in every day daily life
in the US." How exactly does corruption enter peoples every day daily lives? Are you paying 3 bribes per day or something?Your entire reply can be summarized with this: Argentina < USA. But if the US really was the paradise that you are talking about then you would not be in Argentina. A good question is why would someone state BS like that? Are you trying to make yourself feel as if you're doing someone a favor by staying in Argentina or are you perhaps just 100% insane?
 

sergio

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There should be far more people in Argentina behind bars but the justice system does not work and the criminals are free or freed after very short terms. Sadly daily life for people in business is less than transparent, not because they all want it that way but because the system simply makes it that way.I never said that the US was a paradise. Read my post. You obviously didn't read it very carefully.
 

Elpanada

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So what if there should be far more people behind bars in Argentina? The same can be said for a lot of countries but then again it can also be questioned how if incarceration really is effective.But that does not change the fact that the US has the highest % of any country of people behind bars and that it is therefor extremely disputable if its legal system really works as you claim.You practically did say that the US is a paradise:"The reality is that the US has environmental protection laws that are far stricter than those of most countries.
While we can argue that there is “corruption” in the broad philosophical scheme of things (i.e. the war in Iraq etc.) it is simply NOT true that there is much corruption at all in every day daily life in the US. The government does not cheat its citizens. Government services are provided in a generally very efficient way, taxes are assessed and paid by most citizens, Social Security pensions are good and paid without unnecessary red tape, judges are seldom corrupt and if they are caught behaving improperly they are removed and punished. The legal system, while too litigious in my opinion (perhaps a sign of respect for human rights) works. There is, overall, a sense of well being in the US that does not exist here. There is a sense that one can live one’s life without obsessing about the economy, with worrying about what the politicians are doing and without fear of an economic disaster - without fear that the rules of the game will be changed overnight. A society that respects human rights must assure its people that there will be stability, justice and consistency."
That sure sounds like some sort of a utopian paradise...
 

sergio

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I acknowledged clearly that there are problems in the US. I never said, nor do I think, that it is a paradise. No such place exists on earth. I said that there is a sense of well being that does not exist here and that the legal system, in general, works very well - remarkaly well if you want to compare it to Argentina's. All of the things I stated I believe and know to be true. If by your definition they make a country a paradise, then by YOUR definition the US is a paradise. Please do not distort what I have said.
 

Elpanada

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Not distorting anything, you said it, I quoted it but it would be pointless to do so again.There's nothing special about the USA and claiming that it's somehow above Argentina just isn't correct.
 
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