How Hard Is It To Get Out Of Buenos Aires?

I'm still trying to wrap my head around someone who is leaving the US b/c they're afraid of the state of politics and thinks Argentina is the place to go. Um... how much do you know about gov't in Argentina (historical and current)?
 
I'm still trying to wrap my head around someone who is leaving the US b/c they're afraid of the state of politics and thinks Argentina is the place to go. Um... how much do you know about gov't in Argentina (historical and current)?

Oh, well, let's see. From memory, without cheating, this is what I think I know, which may or may not be correct.

In the beginning Simon Bolivar had a dream of a sort of a United States of Latin America, called the United Provinces. After his death, this didn't work out, and what are today the nations of Uruguay and Paraguay and Bolivia went their way, and what was left more or less corresponds to modern Argentina. After that, there was a 75 years or so, on again and off again civil war that seems to have consisted of Buenos Aires against everybody else. In the years before WWI, Argentina was a sort of capitalist's golden dream, fit to give Ayn Rand a wet spot in her panties. The currency was sound, employment was high, and there was a middle-class of sorts.

The Great Depression hammered Argentina's economy into the dirt, but the WWII years were a period of slowly returning prosperity. Contrary to rude American jokes, the Nazis with rank and money mostly fled to Paraguay in 1945, generally only the low level German refugees wound up in Argentina. The 1950's and 1960's saw the rise of populism in Argentina.

Juan Peron was a very good man, though he made his mistakes as all mortal men will. Things started out well, and Evita was beloved by all, but then she died and his reforms of the economy were sabotaged by capitalist speculators and reactionaries. His new wife became President after his death, but she was led astray by bad advice, and the economy faltered as the military grew more restless. By 1974(?) or so popular unrest was very high, and the CIA-led coup against the Allende government in Chile the year before had provided a stark example of what could happen. So La Presidenta handed over the government to a military junta, and then came some very, very bad years that we will not talk about in any detail, lest we should offend our hosts.

After the return of democracy in the early 1980's, Argentina was forced to pay massive reparations, which had to be paid in hard currency. Yet the war had left the economy in ruins. So publicly owned properties and industries were "privatised", sold to rich people for pennies on the dollar. This amounted to a massive looting of the public treasury, and combined with the massive outflow of hard currency, further devastated Argentina's economy. Default was inevitable, and default there was. Settlements were made on the defaulted debt, but vulture capital firms bought up the unsettled defaulted debts and continue to pursue the issue through a variety of dirty tactics.

The Menem years I do not understand. I got nothing on that.

Nestor Kirchner was in some ways like Juan Peron come again, and Christina was more than fit to play the role of his Evita. Together they struggled valiantly to revive the dream of Juan Peron, to return power to the people, to restore the economy and rebuild the middle class, to bring about a more equitable distribution of income, and to eliminate corruption in government. And yet, it would seem that on the side they slipped in a few little insider real estate deals that netted them several million, demonstrating that we are all flawed, we all have feet of clay.

Today, the conservatives and their allies are on the march yet again, sabotaging the economy and creating popular unrest by undermining access to basic services, making the nation suffer in the hope of toppling La Presidenta and her administration. And even her most faithful supporters begin to waver and doubt, under the weariness of long years of inflation, turmoil and uncertainty.

And in the background, unspoken, is the fear that the nightmare years of the late 70's and early 80's could come again, because while the leaders who gave the orders were brought to justice, the lieutenants and captains who carried out those orders were not, and today they are the colonels and generals.

According to one security survey publicly available, Argentina is the most heavily-surveilled nation in Latin America.

Well, that's all I have. I did that from memory with the lone exception that I did look at a map to be sure I wasn't making a total fool of myself when I said Bolivia. Now you see what happens when you ask a question like that of a student of history?

*************
EDIT: I was off by two years, it was 1976, not 1974. That's why I call myself a student of history rather than a historian.
 
So basically nothing.

You and matias will get along swimmingly.

Hey, I said at the top, "this is what I think I know, which may or may not be correct."

Honestly, how can anyone really know about anyplace without going there? I'm perfectly willing to admit I could be completely wrong. But what can you do? You make use of the available sources, and if those sources are tainted, then your understanding is faulty. Admittedly, some of what I said was a bit tongue-in-cheek.

If my understanding is completely wrong, then tell me what your correct version is. I'm here to learn.
 
Well given the slant of your answer, I think there is no point in continuing that discussion. Welcome to Argentina where gov't decisions will influence every facet of your life in a way you can't imagine until you get here. Enjoy.
 
I lived in Mendoza (city) for 2 years. Loved it. I worked remotely so didn't have the problem of finding a job there. People were a lot nicer in general than in BA. Moved my stuff overnight. Took the bus. I showed up and got the keys to my place. My stuff showed up the following morning.

I know the East County since I lived in San Diego for 4 years. I miss being a 30-minute bike ride from La Jolla Cove - and fish tacos at South Beach Bar. If Buenos Aires had a beach I'd give it a 8.5 for standard of living. San Diego would be a 10.

No beach? Have you already forgotten http://en.wikipedia....marital_affair
 
If my understanding is completely wrong, then tell me what your correct version is. I'm here to learn.

This is the problem on this forum, you will get very criticized, you will be told that all youre inputs are wrong, that you know nothing of history (doesnt matter if you have a degree in history, or like me, in sociology). The problem is that they, the people that do not agree with you, will never ever put or write something on argentine history. Maybe an article written by some journalist in foreign media, of course interested, of course with interests. They think the uS or the UK do not have interest in Argentine politics. So what they write is impartial. So you will be criticized, but they do not have a story. They criticize the "relato" but they dont have one. Pretty unbalanced.
 
Well given the slant of your answer, I think there is no point in continuing that discussion. Welcome to Argentina where gov't decisions will influence every facet of your life in a way you can't imagine until you get here. Enjoy.

Wow, I don't see a "slant" in your answer as much as I do in citygirl's reply. Nonetheless, before I continue I must acknowledge that citygirl is speaking as someone who owns and operates a business in Argentina. That puts her deep inside the maze of government regulation (aka strangulation), but even Davidglenn77, who actually closed his business because of government interference (corruption), never expressed such negativity about daily life for the "average" expat or first time, short term visitor (which is exactly what you are at this point) in Argentina.

So, Redpossum, my (possibly) soon to be fellow expat in Argentina, put citygirl's comment out of your head (if you can) and look forward to boarding your flight tomorrow at 04:00. I hope what I write here will ease any doubts you have about your decision to visit Argentina. I also hope you know about and have already paid the reciprocity fee on line. If not, there is still time to do so and print the receipt. I would be very surprised if you have not already taken care of this and I must say that you have done far more research about Argentine history that I did before my arrival in 2006.

Ironically, the only time I ever had any kind of "official confrontation" in Argentina was less than 20 minutes after touchdown of my arrival flight on May 5, 2006. I was given a "choice" by the vet at EZE: Either pay a $100 "fee" to allow my Chihuahua into Argentina or "go back to Mexico" (his exact words). Since then, I have had no problems with any government official...zero. zip. nada. I’ve never been harassed by the police in any way, either.

I breezed through migraciones when I applied for my temporary residency in November, 2006 and permanent residency in 2010. I am able to transfer enough dinero (at a decent exchange rate) each month from the USA to live on. Yes, inflation in Argentina has resulted in higher net prices, but I don't eat in restaurants or go to cafes for a coffee (and rarely did when I lived in BA) and I can live happily on a "retirement" income of less than $1000 per month without any feeling of deprivation.

The best feeling I have is the elation I feel every time I step outside of my home and “survey” my park-like property of almost 12,000 mtrs2, knowing I can cut firewood from the tamarisco “forest” growing next to my house as well as the tamaiscos which border the property (except directly in front of my house which has an unobstructed view of an open and undeveloped hectare (2.47 aces) just across the street).

I can then burn the wood I cut in a traditional fireplace in my living room which, if I was living in the USA, EPA regulations will soon require that I render unusable…or face huge fines…possibly even harsher punishment.

I can also “harvest” the trunks from the eucalyptus trees (without killing them and without asking permission) to build a log home on the 2500 mtr2 lot beside the one on which I live.

I can also back fill a depression in the ground that collects rain water without being sent to prison for destroying natural wetlands or I could enlarge it to make a stock pond without being subject to $75,000 in fines per day for interfering with a navigable waterway.

In spite of inflation in Argentina, I felt great last month when I paid my annual property taxes which were about $100 USD. My electric bill is less than $20 USD per month and the cost of my auto insurance is about $35 USD per month (only comprehensive coverage is available for autos more than ten years old). My home insurance costs $50 USD per month (one tenth of one percent of the amount of coverage) and I spend (on average) about $40 per month for LP gas (delivered by truck) to cook, bathe, and heat my home. Internet, cell phone, and DirecTV total less than $60 per month.

To wrap it up, I first came to visit Argentina in 2006 instead of trying to immigrate to France. I only knew that Buenos Aires had been called the “Paris of Latin America” for decades. It did not live up to that slogan, but since I would never have been able to afford an apartment in Paris and had seriously considered living in a French country village, after four years in Buenos Aires and having obtained permanent residency, I began a search for a quinta (country home) in Argentina. The (possibly irreversible) political trends in the USA (since 2009) had eliminated any desire to return there to live.

I have previously noted that my decision to relocate in the countryside was, to a great degree, based on my concerns about the safety of living in the BA "zone of chaos" during the next crisis. I also wanted to experience country living while I am still physically able to do most of the maintenance, and as a result I am now in the best physical condition of my life.I also sleep better than ever. The closest neighbors (behind my property) are far enough from my house that their roosters and dogs do not bother me in the least. There's nothing here to compare to the barking dogs left all night on apartment balconies in BA...or the drunks in the street at 4 am...or the blaring horns of impatient divers, or the sound and smell of the collectivos.

After almost eight years, I have no regrets about my decision to live in Argentina and I hope you are happy here as well. So are many other expats, including (I daresay) most of those who continue to live in BA and do not find that government decisions "influence every facet" of their lives...or even very many.

There are countries where government decisions will influence every facet of your life.

They're called police states and I think Argentina is actually less likely to become one (again) than the USA in the next five to ten years. Yes, I realize the country was "ruled" by the military from 1976-1983 but I think everyone knows what the term "police state" means in broad terms and it will have greater applications than ever in the USA in the not too distant future. I don't think the Argentine Federal police had less power during the military rule than either before or after it. If I am in error I welcome a correction.
 
So, Redpossum, my (possibly) soon to be fellow expat in Argentina, put citygirl's comment out of your head (if you can) and look forward to boarding your flight tomorrow at 04:00. I hope what I write here will ease any doubts you have about your decision to visit Argentina. I also hope you know about and have already paid the reciprocity fee on line. If not, there is still time to do so and print the receipt. I would be very surprised if you have not already taken care of this and I must say that you have done far more research about Argentine history that I did before my arrival in 2006.
(above quote heavily edited for brevity)

Wow, thanks a ton, Steve! That was an awesome message and I do deeply appreciate it.

In truth I'm an old school forum-rat. I ran a BBS before the web existed as anything but potential and raw infrastructure. (note that I'm using the term Web as different from Net. The Net as DARPANET goes back to the 1960's, while the web didn't really exist until 1994; Mosaic was released in 1993). I've been flamed in more forums than I could count. Any time you're new in a given online community, there will be people who harsh you for no apparent reason, but it's important to be patient and just turn the other cheek. Been through it all before, many times, not gonna get my knickers in a twist about it :)

My mood right now is totally positive, I'm stoked! A little nervous, yeah, but mostly just way excited. I had some unexpected issues that really hosed my carefully-crafted schedule, and some of the things on my "Should Do" list are not going to happen. But the stuff on the "Must Do" list is taken care of, and this is how I feel...

 
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