How many of you want to leave Bs As?

[Quinn]

I don't know how many countries you lived in - or spent more time - but so far by my experience locals always complain. This is for sure I see from my own country to all countries I lived in. Thus I don't see this if it could be used as any tool of measurement.

Locals complain because they know their country the best.
Locals complain because they may or may not have to realize and see other countries - to notice "their homes ain't built of sugar either" (whatever the media suggests).

I have no problem with complaints - how the heck would anything change then? But my personal approach is simple as expat - and braking down to a world traveller: immerse in the country and respect whatever you finds there. I'm doing this stronger when I know, the country I'm in is not as wealthy as my home - or any "better" - country.

Life and people are not bad - drawing the Ultimate One-and-All Conclusion, spreading stereotypes and generalization based on a few of your personal bad experience or "what others complained" is only childish and I assume people here are adult enough. (this isn't related to you va2ba, just into the air)

I can only speak for myself, but all my posts aren't about anything money related. I've lived for periods of time in many countries around the world. It's the acceptance of social flaws and acceptance and implementation of poor moral behavior.

I have more friends here that are from here, that are not expats. And yes, they observe all the same problems being discussed here. They are the ones to always point out problems, recommend not doing this/going there due to crime problems, long lines, etc. But in relaying that info, it's nothing more than accepting it for what it is. The first people who should be fighting to make the city better are these same people, but the opt to accept things as they are. Acceptance is the greatest obstacle in facilitating change...and the society we live in here will never evolve without the "locals" being the ones that start it all.

 

[Quinn]

In earlier post I was wondering if there was something different with the Brits, seems my observations are being confirmed. Somebody said that the English and Americans were two people separated by a common language. In reality I think its two very different cultures connected by a common language.

Indeed. Brits are by nature more accepting and tend to be more reserved when it comes to their own emotions...compared to Americans and Aussies. It's a strength in their culture that is commendable. That said, there's also a much higher rate of alcoholism by Brits, so i'm sure some psychologist/sociologist could find a connection

Personally, I love the UK. But in the end, it's the weather that is why I have never spent more than a few months in a row there.

 

[deeve007]

It's a strength in their culture that is commendable

I think "strength" could be debated. As you say, alcoholism is high, as are mental health issues, many of which may be the result of suppressing emotions due to cultural expectations.

 

[Quinn]

No, but at the same time you don't go into a society like that saying that "I'm right, you're wrong". You need to work with locals to change culture that has grown over time and guide them into seeing where change is needed. Real change comes from within, not forced on them from outsiders.

I've seen first hand outsiders coming into traditional cultures with this "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude, and it doesn't usually result in a positive outcome.

But we're going on a tangent now.

Tell that to British, French, Portuguese and of course, Spanish imperialists who set the tone for a great portion of the world. All those churches and Christians you see around the city didn't just happen to stumble upon baby jesus

I'm kidding on that...not associating the conquering of a world with recommending evolution of social "mores" here. Just like I'd be kidding in saying that Argentina could really use a re-imperialist "visit" from it's old step mother, Spain .

But coming from a country founded by "aliens" (native american slaughter aside), I've seen first hand in my lifetime alone, how newcomers can come to my country, contribute, voice their opinions, and facilitate positive change for everyone. Whether it were the Irish in Boston, the French in New Hampshire, the Italians in New York, former slaves from Africa in the south, the Cubans in Miami, and central americans in California and the west...there were not just groups by individuals that had the strength to stand up for what they believed and help CHANGE the culture. People know the most influential like Cesar Chavez, etc. But they didn't do what they did alone. It was the support they had by others, who shared their ideals, that worked to do their part to make it a better world.

But I guess they should have just accepted things for what they were, right?

 

[cbphoto]

Very well said Quinn!

 

[deeve007]

But I guess they should have just accepted things for what they were, right?

No, but what is common amongst the examples you list?

I'll help you out there: They brought ideas into the local culture, and over time locals decided that those ideas were something they wanted to support.

After having spent 2 years working in Kenya for an NGO (which doesn't make me any sort of "expert", just a slightly informed observer) I've seen first hand both the good and the bad that so called external "experts" can bring into a country. And from my observations, there are two things that I will now support with regards to "helping" any country/culture: Education, & access to communication infrastructure/technology.

With those two factors, I have confidence in communities fixing their own "issues" far more effectively than it being forced down their throats by outsiders.

And don't get me started on the harm Christian/Catholic missionaries have wrought on the African continent, and still are with the stance on safe sex, condom use ...etc.

 

[fvrconst]

The issue is not that BA does not compare with cities in 1st world countries like US, Australia, Germany, France, etc. The problem is that BA is more and more on par with some of the worst cities on the continent and that there are a number of better environments in other south american cities. BA was once a crown jewel in the region. It's lost that. And it's the responsibility of the people, all it's inhabitants both short and long-term, to make it a better place. Recognizing that which is wrong is the first step in making it a better place for all. Denying problems just adds to the decay.

The issue indeed isn't that, but the one sentence revelation 'BsAs is worse than US'.

Denying problems just adds to the decay.

The question of Little Rabbit's hat, let's decide: the problem is if people complain about or deny the issues?

Though I agree with you, it's a mixed responsibility.

I lived in former-Sovjet countries and even nowadays they blame the communism as culprit. "The waiter was a total asshole with you? Yeah, you know, it's because of the communism". "Someone pushed you away while waiting to pay in the shop? Yeah, you know, it's because of the communism."
It doesn't matter 11 or more years passed by - it's still the communism the culprit and a verrrrry good excuse - not the people. And it's even funnier when that let's say 20 years old boy/girl do and says these who never actually felt anything on his/her skin from the communism.

I can pretty much imagine the same in Argentina. No mistakes, I'm not make a fun of the history - but what's sad is always blaming others. This is why I really keep the healthy distance with the people 40-50-60. They've seen many things, but too old to change or admit if they're wrong.

On the other hand politicians are always good to kick in even if they're on the floor. But I really hate politics, so won't step onto this road.

 

[fvrconst]

Acceptance is the greatest obstacle in facilitating change...and the society we live in here will never evolve without the "locals" being the ones that start it all.

I think if we find a solution how to go on strike besides your daily job, protecting your loved ones, to know you can buy the dinner tomorrow, etc - then we could solve many countries' problem.

I don't think it's acceptance problem. I'm very confident the problem in Buenos Aires is very much the same like in other "middle class" cities. The illusion of democracy or pressure of capitalism. Or what.

The poor don't have a sound. Even if they did they cannot change too much by peaceful means of striking.
The middle class cannot/don't want to risk their lives earned with hard work.
The high class just doesn't care to change anything as it's not necessary for them.

So if anyone has a working idea how to facilitate changes then I think hundred thousands, millions of ears would turn to the direction.

 

[cbphoto]

"The poor don't have a sound. Even if they did they cannot change too much by peaceful means of striking.
The middle class cannot/don't want to risk their lives earned with hard work.
The high class just doesn't care to change anything as it's not necessary for them."

Well spoken!

 

[Amargo]

I think blaming the Argentines for not adapting to the country is pathetic. It is their country after all! Why trying to implant our culture and everything we have (even the food!) into THEIR country? This is something I do not understand.
And even more pathetic I find expats who, after not being able to adapt to the country and graciously say something like: 'oh, well, it is not for me' start attacking the country and their great people.

I will always be very thankfull to all the Argentines for giving me the opportunity of living here and accepting me as one of them (which is indeed very difficult in the US and Western Europe, even if they say they do out of political correctness).