Immigration Lawyers

My thoughts exactly.

Also I cannot find in that law/decree/memo found by ben any reference to foreign born citizens naturalized in Argentina. It only mentions Argentinians naturalized in other countries. That could be a big difference in a legal debate, no?

I know a lot of people who fits in the former category (foreigners naturalized in Argentina). Once they gained citizenship here, they always have used Argentine passports to enter Argentina.

Personally, I will not want to "test" it to see who was right..Ben or Dr Rubuliar!!!

On another note...a hypothetical situation. A person who is not a citizen by birth in Argentina is naturalized here travels abroad ( eg Dominica)...loses his Argentina passport in a hurricane or a robbery..the island does not have a Argentine embassy...will it be Ok to fly back to Arg with a foreign passport and on arrival declare to immigration - the whole problem. and be 100% transparent. I think in this case, there is a possibility, there may be empathy by the immigration officers but may be Dr Rubiliar will disagree?
 
@Randoms and @ceviche, was going to comment that exactly. It is true - the regulations all discuss specifically Argentines naturalized elsewhere, not foreigners who acquired Argentine citizenship by naturalization.

Is there a difference? Very possibly.
That aside - I think this thread is absolutely perfect. I wish it never moves on from here.

Because we cannot find similar any law or directive for foreigners naturalized in Argentina, is it possible that the Argentine immigration officers take it for granted they will enter/leave Argentina with Argentine passports without fail? Otherwise their system may crash and someone may get arrested :)

One question to all: When does an Argentinian become a non-resident in Argentina? Just after living outside for 6 months?
 
@Randoms and @ceviche, was going to comment that exactly. It is true - the regulations all discuss specifically Argentines naturalized elsewhere, not foreigners who acquired Argentine citizenship by naturalization.

Is there a difference? Very possibly.
That aside - I think this thread is absolutely perfect. I wish it never moves on from here.

Argentinos por opcion are alike native. However, to cancel the citizenship to them was allowed by SC.
 
Personally, I will not want to "test" it to see who was right..Ben or Dr Rubuliar!!!

On another note...a hypothetical situation. A person who is not a citizen by birth in Argentina is naturalized here travels abroad ( eg Dominica)...loses his Argentina passport in a hurricane or a robbery..the island does not have a Argentine embassy...will it be Ok to fly back to Arg with a foreign passport and on arrival declare to immigration - the whole problem. and be 100% transparent. I think in this case, there is a possibility, there may be empathy by the immigration officers but may be Dr Rubiliar will disagree?

Prosecutors, the issue are prosecutors. You can arrive on your digital/finger prints.
 
Because we cannot find similar any law or directive for foreigners naturalized in Argentina, is it possible that the Argentine immigration officers take it for granted they will enter/leave Argentina with Argentine passports without fail? Otherwise their system may crash and someone may get arrested :)

One question to all: When does an Argentinian become a non-resident in Argentina? Just after living outside for 6 months?

Because citizenship can be cancel perhaps? However, according with Ben, it is Ok...

It is more complex. Let's simplify it so Ben can understands it: when you inscribe in the AR Consulate abroad as a resident of that country.
 
@ceviche -

As I said, I am not at all sure the same applies to naturalized Argentines, as - as Randoms noted - the norma explicitly specifies native Argentines naturalized abroad.

Bajo somehow mixed argentinos por opcion into this, not sure why. The question was nativos vs. naturalized.

There is - or rather, was - a clause in law ("ley de facto") 21.795, the junta-era nationality law, that listed as one of the things that would nullify Argentine naturalization, "todo acto que comporte el ejercicio de la nacionalidad de origen". Entering Argentina on the original passport would certainly qualify. However, that law was abrogated as soon as civilian rule returned.

That said, again the DNM regulation very specifically mentions Argentines naturalized abroad. However, at that time this norma was promulgated, naturalization demanded renunciation of the prior citizenship, so the only possible dual citizens were Argentines naturalized abroad. Today that is not the case - so definitely an argument can be made either way.

There was a landmark case in 2009 of 2 Argentine born brothers of Lithuanian ancestry, who wanted to renounce Argentine citizenship in order to qualify for the Lithuanian one. The case made its way up through the courts, up to the Camara Electoral Nacional, where it was decided conclusively that native Argentines cannot lose their nationality even when expressly requesting this.

The case is excellent reading, the whole thing can be found here. Among the salient points:

Quotes several relevant rulings by the Supreme Court (notably Padilla, Miguel M. s/ presentación), among them:
  • that as contemplated in Ley 346 and elsewhere, citizenship (namely, the political and civic rights of a resident) is not synonymous with nationality;
  • that Law 346, as implemented by Decreto 3213/84 art. 16, makes clear that even "suspension of the right of exercising the political rights [i.e. citizenship] ... does not deprive [one] of the rights, nor exempts [one] of the obligations inherent to Argentine nationality, whether native or acquired";
  • that "once Law 21.795 (the Vidal-era nationality law) was revoked, there remained in force no measure that establishes that loss of Argentine nationality is engendered by naturalization abroad";
  • that "though [nationality] obtained by naturalization may be revocable, for causes reasonably foreseen in the law, for example if obtained by fraud, it is nonetheless clear that it can never be revoked on the part of the applicant... it is perfectly admissible that a given nationality may be obtained, distinct from that of origin, and it is the case that a person may opt-in to Argentine nationality or naturalize as Argentine without losing the nationality of origin".
At any rate, I am not a lawyer and definitely do not want to exceed the bounds of my competence. But it seems pretty clear that bajo's threat of citizenship getting cancelled because of entry on a foreign passport is wildly exaggerated. And he knows this full well.
 
Because citizenship can be cancel perhaps? However, according with Ben, it is Ok...

It is more complex. Let's simplify it so Ben can understands it: when you inscribe in the AR Consulate abroad as a resident of that country.

Dude, it's a page and a half and you still haven't answered a simple question.
As expected, faced with the almost certain absence of any relevant precedent, you ducked behind professional secret.

So because of professional secret, you are reluctant to cite actual cases - where the thing you are loudly warning may happen, actually happened. OK.

I didn't even ask for names btw. Just a number. How many Argentines, native or naturalized, lost their citizenship because they entered on a foreign passport.

============

I'll repeat the 2 simple, factual questions.

1. How many times to your knowledge, since 1992, has an Argentine citizen had his/her citizenship cancelled because of entering Argentina on a foreign passport, as you claim may happen?
2. How many hoops will you jump through to avoid answering question #1?

At least you are answering my 2nd question nicely.
 
Ben, one of the most complicated debates in citizenship is regarding the difference between nationality and citizenship, however, seems, that you imagine you understand that. You do not, know it.

Citizenship is something you have for your entire life so, it is not smart at all to jeopardize it violating basic principles of international private law that were confirmated by Supreme Court because the President can change the decree tomorrow and ups, guess what, you loose your citizenship. The second issue is that it is very unsual that Prosecutors have a minimum idea of what is abrogate because they enforce abrogated laws hidden behind precedents [because of xenophobia].

So, your judgments are in the best possible scenario naive and consequense or your ignorancy on the topic.
 
Ben, your two questions are stupid and infantile among other reasons, because we were living under the rule of law while now we are not.
So, while you do biased questions based on your missunderstanding of Padilla, a case where this guy tried to cancel the citizenship of the SC Judge Zaffaroni, you do not even understand that the goal is to predict the future and protect your self because the judges Macri is appointing are super anti foreigners and they enforce the DNU 70/2017 were foreigners has no rights at all. Not even defence rights.
There are not statics on citizenship.
However, only in Cordoba about 500 citizenships were cancel besides due process. So, as I said before, being very nice with you, your conclutions are naive.

I suggest you read DNU 70/2017 because it is very alike the 1935 Nuremberg's laws that allowed the holocaust.

So, you are the typical keyboard general who never, ever, put a feet on a Federal Judge while I am a licensed professional who has cases before 28 Federal Judges around the whole country BUT somehow, you feel in conditions to judge me while there are several judges who automatically moves away to avoid debating with me.
 
Are there any others other than Voldemort?

Not sure who voldemort is, but I have used and recommend http://www.immigrar.com. I needed help for my temporary worker's visa both for myself and the employer's side. Technically we we could have done this ourselves (indeed the first time around we did do it ourselves). But her advice on the contracts and the time saved I felt in our case was well worth the price we paid.
 
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