Is BA the Right Place for Me?

[Joe]

Joe,



Please also consider that I 100 percent agree Argentina is likely to get alot more expensive for expats!! The Thailand baht has already made a major currency move, while the peso has not. http://www.economist.com/world/la/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9988808
This is because according to this article their next president Cristina Fernández de Kirchner will be raising interest rates and letting the peso strengthen. I would predict when that happens easily a 30 percent weakening of the US dollar over a year. Also, please answer. What would your visa strategy be for Argentina? You do not have a pension. What kind of long term visa do you think you can get?

Thanks Fullmet. for all the feedback,It too preliminary for me to think of a visa because I am still not sure the expat life is for me. I plan to travel around Argentina, Uruguay and Chile. I also plan to change apartments every month so I can live in different neighborhoods (and also avoid the crazy full rent prepayment system they have in Argentina!)I imagine you are correct about the peso being decoupled from the US $.
I hope it doesn't happen before March when I plan to visit. Fortunately
I am invested in foreign currency ETFs to cushion the blow.
I spent my last month in Jomtien. It would be great if they built highrise condos connected to underground shopping centers in Thailand (like in Montreal) but instead of to avoid the snow, to avoid the heat. Maybe they have that in BKK but I avoided BKK on my last trip. I would consider going back to LOS if the baht weakened to 40 but that is a pipe dream. Or is I got sick and needed expensive medical care.
When I was in Jomtien two Russian girls got shot dead on the beach - did that ever get resolved? Russians and Thais - a dangerous combination! Getting back to Argentina, and crime would you say that the vast majority of the muggings and "express kidnappings" occur in the evening or late evening? It's been my experience that the bad guys prefer the cover of the night in most places I've been. I've only been in one place during the daytime that I felt really uncomfortable- Cambodia, Laos - No - it was downtown LA and mid Wilshire! I like to wander side streets and take photographs. I guess I would be asking for trouble in BA!

 

[citygirl]

I posted this on the thread about crime but I haven't found Bs As to be particularly unsafe. Again, I moved here from NYC & take the same precautions here that I did there (I don't carry a lot of money on me, I don't walk alone at night, I don't carry more than one credit card, I don't wear expensive jewelry & I don't frequent touristy spots as that tends to be the prime pick-pocketing area). Shrug.. I may be lucky but in my experience, taking the necessary precautions avoids 80% of the risk. Yes, sometimes you're just unlucky but that can happen anywhere..
I walk alone every day in Bs As & (knock on wood) haven't had any problems at all.
And yes, if you're coming from a major metropolitan area - Buenos Aires IS still cheap. I paid over 2000 USD a month for a studio apt in NYC. Obviously, it's a lot less here than there...The rest - it's hot, the food is good but in my opinion, there aren't tons of options (and how I miss good spicy food, why the aversion to spicy food here? And Indian.. I really miss good Indian)Anyway, come visit & see what you think....

 

[Patt]

I have gotten "picked" only once and I knew I was a target. It was in Retiro trying to get on a bus to Misiones. Because I was going for 2 weeks to see friends over the Christmas holidays I needed to carry my things in a larger sized day pack and bring/wear a hat. At the time I had longer blond hair and my hat that could not be packed was cowgirl style. I was in the "mass" trying to aboard the bus. I carried nothing of value in the front pockets of my pack - DUH. I also had a nylon shoulder bag crossed over my shoulder. For a split second I looked over to my right and down and saw a very feminie hand going for my zipper of the shoulder bag... SLAM. I took that chica right into the side of the bus with my body. She looked like an innocent -not poverty stricken - person. The people awaiting to embark grabbed me thinking I was fallling (some did) and others knowing I knew what was happening. SHE disappeared into nothingness.Then later, as it takes some time to get on the bus, someone said Senora your bag is opened, referring to my pack. I asked them to zip it up. When I got to Obera I realized that I had been "picked". Since I carry little of importance it was not a propery problem - all that was missing was 2 packs of Marlboro Lights Box and a change purse filled only with condoms. JAJAJAJA - I would have loved to see the theif's face thinking it was money. I was on my way to stay in a charca developed by gay male friends. I was not going to NEED those condoms anyway (always be prepared though - you never know....).Laughter aside I had a tough 4 days afterward, being who I am. I felt so bad SLAMMING that women against a bus even though she was attempting to rob me - but more - I felt VIOLATED.Lucky? Ya - knock on woody - and watch out!

 

[citygirl]

Sorry to hear about that - it's always such a violating experience when you're robbed. I was mugged in NYC years ago & it took me a long time to feel comfortable again (and I learned the hard way not to carry a lot of cash on me & certainly not to be stupid enough to count it in public).What's that saying? "Trust in god but lock your doors?" That's my general philosophy. I take the precautions & hope for the best - what else can you do?!

 

[LuckyLucy]

How can anyone decide for anyone else whether a certain place is right for them? Everyone has a different path in life and what suits one person will not necessarily suit the other!

 

[chris]

Interesting thread. Here are a few of my observations based on many years in Argentina:

1) Crime is real however the situation is still manageable. I feel reasonably safe in my neighborhood (Recoleta) as the streets are fairly well lit, there seem to be more police than in other areas (probably due to the presence of quite a few five star hotels in the area) and there are usually people on the street. Crime still happens however I do not feel that it is oppressive, at least not yet.
2) A lot of native Portenos get robbed but it's also true that foreigners who are obviously foreigners are easy targets. Though someone here said that she wears clothes purchased here and still got robbed, it helps to dress more like a local. Wearing shorts and a baseball cap is a way of calling attention to yourself.
3) Prices are rising rapidly however they are still a good deal lower than those in major US cities. The bus still costs an average of 80 centavos; the subway 70 centavos; taxis are a fraction of the US price. Rents, both for locals and short term rentals for foreigners, have risen however you can still find decent rentals for well under $1,000 dollars a month. I doubt that you could find that in San Francisco or New York. Restaurants have risen a lot however they are a good lower than those in the US, at least at higher end places.
4) It's true that there is a lot of uniformity in food here with very little seafood and a limited number of Asian restaurants (the number is growing but the quality is generally not impressive). Still there are a lot of interesting places to eat and a lot more creativity than I saw during the 1990’s
5) Summer heat and humidity are oppressive, so come after the summer. Also make sure that your apartment has a fairly new and efficient air conditioner. Many do NOT!
6) My suggestion would be to come after the heat and see for yourself how you like it. As for the cost of living, you surely know that Argentina is an unstable country. The situation today could change tomorrow. The decision to devalue came quickly in a chaotic way. The result - low prices for people with dollars, pounds and euros - is what led many (if not most) of today's expats to come here in the first place. Just as there was no guarantee that the 1 peso/1 dollar convertibility policy that existed during Menem's administration would continue forever, there is no guarantee that today's economy, good or bad, will remain the same.
7) Come and see for yourself if you like it. I personally would not trade Argentina for Thailand.

 

[Bill]

Hi Joe, I'll give you a bit of my history and advice.
I travelled through Latin America for 6 months on my way to Argentina, where I lived for over a year, half in BA and the other half in Rosario. In the winter I went to northern Brazil and worked my way down the coast back to BA. In the summer, I travelled through southern Argentina, Pantagonia and then Chile before returning to travel through northern Argentina. At that point I had already decided to return to Canada and that's where I am now. The economy is booming and the lifestyle is great. This winter I'll live in Mexico.
Would I recommend Argentina? Yes. It's a beautiful country and one of the easiest Latin American countries to live in. If you have an income of at least $500/month, then I'd say you could live in Argentina quite well. That's based on how I lived though, and I like living cheaply. It's hard-wired into my brain and besides, most Argentines have to live on about this amount and they survive okay. Most have very nice lifestyles from what I saw.
Would I recommend Buenos Aires? No, although that's a marginal no. Visiting the city is always special and the weather is ideal in spring or fall. It's a big city though, and has it's share of big city problems. One of which is that it's still growing out of control much like Mexico city or Rio de Janeiro. It's a nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there. The pollution, poverty, noise etc... can wear you down.
My plan was to live in Argentina for a year as if I was making the permanent move. If it went well, I'd stay for 5 years or more. In the end, I decided I was going to leave and not come back. The reasons why are long and some are a bit complicated, such as the way I was treated in Argentina. Very minor stuff on the surface but when people lie to you, to your face, thinking that you're an idiot, it starts to eat at you. The bottom line is that it wasn't the right fit for me and I'm happy to admit it.
It's a great idea for you to visit the country before making any sort of serious decision. The longer the better since there's always a "honeymoon" period when people first arrive and that takes awhile to get past. Even if things don't work out, it'll be a wonderful adventure. Be sure to visit other cities if you can.
Getting money in and out of the country is also a problem and this has been talked about in this forum and others. Doing your banking through ATM's isn't practical in the long-term. It's vital that you're able to set up a bank account and also get a DNI in Argentina. If you don't know what I'm talking about, you REALLY do need to do some homework. A key point is that the rules change when you hit Argentine soil. Applying from your home country can be valuable.
Do you speak Spanish? If not, it's going to be a struggle for you. YES, many argentines speak english (thanks to a glut of english teachers) but long-term life WILL be a struggle if you don't know spanish or have the ability (or interest) to learn quickly.
Another point is that before the crash, BA was one of the most expensive cities in the world to live. This is starting to happen again but in a strange way since the Peso is being held low while hyper-inflation is allowed to erode buying power. The exchange rates and government stats don't tell the real story. I'd rate the whole situation as unstable.
Having said that... Argentina is still a bargin overall compared to living in North America and less expensive that Chile and Brazil in my experience. The cheapest option is Bolivia, just to the north although, living in Bolivia could be pretty hardcore. I found two cities I liked. Sucre and cochabamba (sp?).
Regarding crime, I got robbed a couple times in Argentina and Chile. Both times by people stealing from where my stuff was stored, even when it was locked up. Lots of theft by people who know where to look I suppose. On the street, I'm pretty careful and haven't had that much trouble despite visiting very dangerous areas. One of my major travel abilites is to adapt to my environment though, so half of my contact on the street is from people asking for directions.
Perhaps the most obvious signal of crime is the way every building is built for security with bars on the windows etc... It's not something I'm used to in Canada and I asked Argentines if this was really necessary. Every single one said YES. The bottom line is you have to protect yourself and be aware of that at all times. Just like anywhere in the world I suppose.

 

[Granadaiscool]

Hi Joe, I'll give you a bit of my history and advice.
I travelled through Latin America for 6 months on my way to Argentina, where I lived for over a year, half in BA and the other half in Rosario. In the winter I went to northern Brazil and worked my way down the coast back to BA. In the summer, I travelled through southern Argentina, Pantagonia and then Chile before returning to travel through northern Argentina. At that point I had already decided to return to Canada and that's where I am now. The economy is booming and the lifestyle is great. This winter I'll live in Mexico.
Would I recommend Argentina? Yes. It's a beautiful country and one of the easiest Latin American countries to live in. If you have an income of at least $500/month, then I'd say you could live in Argentina quite well. That's based on how I lived though, and I like living cheaply. It's hard-wired into my brain and besides, most Argentines have to live on about this amount and they survive okay. Most have very nice lifestyles from what I saw.
Would I recommend Buenos Aires? No, although that's a marginal no. Visiting the city is always special and the weather is ideal in spring or fall. It's a big city though, and has it's share of big city problems. One of which is that it's still growing out of control much like Mexico city or Rio de Janeiro. It's a nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there. The pollution, poverty, noise etc... can wear you down.
My plan was to live in Argentina for a year as if I was making the permanent move. If it went well, I'd stay for 5 years or more. In the end, I decided I was going to leave and not come back. The reasons why are long and some are a bit complicated, such as the way I was treated in Argentina. Very minor stuff on the surface but when people lie to you, to your face, thinking that you're an idiot, it starts to eat at you. The bottom line is that it wasn't the right fit for me and I'm happy to admit it.
It's a great idea for you to visit the country before making any sort of serious decision. The longer the better since there's always a "honeymoon" period when people first arrive and that takes awhile to get past. Even if things don't work out, it'll be a wonderful adventure. Be sure to visit other cities if you can.
Getting money in and out of the country is also a problem and this has been talked about in this forum and others. Doing your banking through ATM's isn't practical in the long-term. It's vital that you're able to set up a bank account and also get a DNI in Argentina. If you don't know what I'm talking about, you REALLY do need to do some homework. A key point is that the rules change when you hit Argentine soil. Applying from your home country can be valuable.
Do you speak Spanish? If not, it's going to be a struggle for you. YES, many argentines speak english (thanks to a glut of english teachers) but long-term life WILL be a struggle if you don't know spanish or have the ability (or interest) to learn quickly.
Another point is that before the crash, BA was one of the most expensive cities in the world to live. This is starting to happen again but in a strange way since the Peso is being held low while hyper-inflation is allowed to erode buying power. The exchange rates and government stats don't tell the real story. I'd rate the whole situation as unstable.
Having said that... Argentina is still a bargin overall compared to living in North America and less expensive that Chile and Brazil in my experience. The cheapest option is Bolivia, just to the north although, living in Bolivia could be pretty hardcore. I found two cities I liked. Sucre and cochabamba (sp?).
Regarding crime, I got robbed a couple times in Argentina and Chile. Both times by people stealing from where my stuff was stored, even when it was locked up. Lots of theft by people who know where to look I suppose. On the street, I'm pretty careful and haven't had that much trouble despite visiting very dangerous areas. One of my major travel abilites is to adapt to my environment though, so half of my contact on the street is from people asking for directions.
Perhaps the most obvious signal of crime is the way every building is built for security with bars on the windows etc... It's not something I'm used to in Canada and I asked Argentines if this was really necessary. Every single one said YES. The bottom line is you have to protect yourself and be aware of that at all times. Just like anywhere in the world I suppose.

You think you live ´quite well ´ with 500 dollars a month?

 

[Bill]

I set the $500 as a minimum but yes, it's possible. If you're a single person and don't require very much, then it's comfortable even living on the cheap. Not everyone wants (or needs) to own an apartment, a car or eat out at restaurants every night. There are other basic housing options like renting a room in a house or sharing an apartment.
If I handed $500 to an average Argentine and asked if they could live on that for a month they'd find it pretty easy. That's 1500 pesos. The minimum wage in Argentina is something like 800 pesos. Half these people are driving around in cars older than me or at worst... donkey carts collecting trash. Get out of the tourist zone for an evening and it can become another world.
Watch these people in action and you'll see that they don't blow money like north americans do. They also know what the real prices of things should be and know how to work their friends network to negotiate. I've been to Opera bay (nightclub) several times and never paid to get in for example. There's always a friend of a friend.
The reason I give examples of how cheaply I could live is because this was a personal project for me and I suspect other people may want to try the same thing. It's easy to move to Argentina with a big bag of cash and live like a king. Living like Argentines do on the wages they are forced to accept is a challenge and it also gives you more insight into how tough these people are. It's also realistic in the long run because unless your money bag is really big, you'll eventually have to adapt to the economics there.
I prefer to live cheaply (without working) and spend money travelling around. Living in a big city, watching TV, getting drunk, dancing or sitting around bitching about inflation is something I can do anywhere in the world. Standing at the Moreno glacier and watching the ice crash isn't, and that's why I can say yes... I live quite well.

 

[Joe]

I prefer to live cheaply (without working) and spend money travelling around. Living in a big city, watching TV, getting drunk, dancing or sitting around bitching about inflation is something I can do anywhere in the world. Standing at the Moreno glacier and watching the ice crash isn't, and that's why I can say yes... I live quite well.

Thanks Bill,I believe you do live quite well. I spent most of my adult life chasing after material possessions and working in cubicles to pay for the junk - and now all I have to show for it is chronic high blood pressure!Staying in cheap guest houses in SE Asia was a lot cheaper than hotels but is was also a lot more fun because you met people to talk with and sometimes even to travel with.