Legal Reference About Home "expensas" Needed

[Girino]

I can't seem to retrieve a thread started some months ago about Who pay expensas - you or your landord? and I have a situation.

The previous tenant was a lighthearted girl who sometimes forgot to pay expensas, so our landlord is not very used to this expensas thing. When we entered this apartment it was our first rental in Argentina. We asked the owner about the expensas - who pays which - and he said that we should pay all of the expensas we get by the building manager because he pays his expensas on a separate account (which we later found our was a plain lie - there is no such account).
So we started asking around to our neighbours and we found out that it is "customary" that the tenants pays for "ordinary expenses" and the landlord for "extraordinary expensas", just like in our home country. I don't care about customary, I want the law!

Our building has 24 apartments, of which only 2 are occupied by their respective owners, the other 22 are all rented. The admin is basically playing for the landlords by submitting monthly expenses where expensas ordinarias and straordinarias are all mixed up, so that one should calculate which is which... or forget about it and pay them in full, which is what most of the tenants do (both because they don't know any better, and because Argentines aren't exactly fighters).

After months of emailing back and forth with the building manager and our landlord where we asked for a definitive answer about who should pay what - the building manager finally admitted that extraordinary expenses should be paid by the landord... and of course our landlord started complaining, saying that in his opinion all of the expenses are the tenants', that he never heard of such thing, that all of the expensas could be considered extraordinary because even a light bulb lasts longer than a rental contract.... twisted philosophical gobbledygooks, ya know!

Isn't there a legal reference where this is stated clearly? The rent is high, expensas are running to more than $1,000/month because there have been many extraordinary maintenance events and some are being paid in cuotas.... basically we are even paying for extraordinary expensas which occurred before we entered the building!

We are of course looking for a new place, but since the landlord has our deposit (which is higher than our current rent + expensas combined) we would like to settle this thing before leaving this apartment. Thanks folks!

 

[semigoodlookin]

I will drop in, although am not likely to give anything definitive. When we rented late last year, our agent made it clear we pay oridnary expenses and the landlord covers extraordinary expenses. We have had several things come up where we had to ask which bracket it fell into, ordinary or extraordinary, and we were told they were the responisibility of the landlord. While our agent did not whip out a law book and tell us it was law, to us he seemed to make it very clear that it was.

For example, we have had security cameras, new one way glass in the security hut, and bicycle racks put into our building since we moved in. These all fell under extraordinary expenses and we do not have to pay for them. We do however pay for the concorcio, basic maintainence (cleaning, lights, etc.), and not much else. Our basic expenses run over $1000 too, expenses suck.

 

[Sleuth]

We're supposed to pay ordinary expenses and the landlord extraordinary, but ours are all mixed together too. My wife tried for a few months to get the breakout of the two and eventually gave up. We figured since our rent was low, we're doing ok and it was not worth the headache anymore.

 

[AngelinBA]

Ley de Alquileres, says my lawyer husband. Its usually spelled out in your contract too, and could also be covered in the Codigo Civil, although he's not so sure about that one.

 

[EricBluegrassFiddle]

I can't seem to retrieve a thread started some months ago about Who pay expensas - you or your landord? and I have a situation.

The previous tenant was a lighthearted girl who sometimes forgot to pay expensas, so our landlord is not very used to this expensas thing. When we entered this apartment it was our first rental in Argentina. We asked the owner about the expensas - who pays which - and he said that we should pay all of the expensas we get by the building manager because he pays his expensas on a separate account (which we later found our was a plain lie - there is no such account).
So we started asking around to our neighbours and we found out that it is "customary" that the tenants pays for "ordinary expenses" and the landlord for "extraordinary expensas", just like in our home country. I don't care about customary, I want the law!

Our building has 24 apartments, of which only 2 are occupied by their respective owners, the other 22 are all rented. The admin is basically playing for the landlords by submitting monthly expenses where expensas ordinarias and straordinarias are all mixed up, so that one should calculate which is which... or forget about it and pay them in full, which is what most of the tenants do (both because they don't know any better, and because Argentines aren't exactly fighters).

After months of emailing back and forth with the building manager and our landlord where we asked for a definitive answer about who should pay what - the building manager finally admitted that extraordinary expenses should be paid by the landord... and of course our landlord started complaining, saying that in his opinion all of the expenses are the tenants', that he never heard of such thing, that all of the expensas could be considered extraordinary because even a light bulb lasts longer than a rental contract.... twisted philosophical gobbledygooks, ya know!

Isn't there a legal reference where this is stated clearly? The rent is high, expensas are running to more than $1,000/month because there have been many extraordinary maintenance events and some are being paid in cuotas.... basically we are even paying for extraordinary expensas which occurred before we entered the building!

We are of course looking for a new place, but since the landlord has our deposit (which is higher than our current rent + expensas combined) we would like to settle this thing before leaving this apartment. Thanks folks!

Well, it depends on your rental agreement...did you read it or just breeze through it....? Did you take it to an argentine friend who might be knowledgeable on these matters? Realtors or "martillero publicos" are some of the shadiest most downright sleaziest people in all of argentina...as are landlords too. They are always trying to stiff extra pesos out of you and they'll try to take advantage of ones ignorance on the law about things. I haven't dealt with one yet that hasn't tried to stiff me and my wife ( she's argentine ) on something, it's something I dread....dealing with apoderados or martilleros. My advice is do you know someone, or someone that has a friend that is a realtor? If so, maybe you or they can contact "El Collegio de Los Martilleros y Corredores de Comercio, Provincia de Buenos Aires" and see how it holds up.

Generally laws in Argentina heavily favor the tenant over the Landlord due to so many abuses but not always. Also depends on the contract and what's considered part of "las expensas" in the building. In most cases "las expensas" are shared by all of the tenants in the buiulding but sometimes they aren't very clear on what's included and what's not. Any type of plumbing or structural issues shouldn't come out of your pocket though...although, if you have any problems of "any" kind with this kind of stuff, not only is it a literal "pain in the you know what" to deal with, it ALWAYS take them 4-ever to get anything done about it. This is one of those situations where like I've said: In Argentina, if you are passive and not confrontational and somewhat aggressive, you'll have a very hard time" because folks will try to get a "viveza criolla" out of you everytime if you let them.

It boils down to knowing prov law and what can be included under expensas or what is the responsibility of the landlord. Your going to have to dig through this and find out and be prepared to stand your ground on this.....they'll get you every time if you let em, especially landlords and martilerros....they are the worst...always difficult generally to deal with in Argentina.

 

[Rawley]

Even when the owner is responsible for the monthly fees to the building, the real estate market makes them part of the rent. It is standard procedure for any lease contract.

 

[Alicia karr]

Just curious when you all say you're paying $1000/month you mean pesos not dollars right?

 

[semigoodlookin]

Just curious when you all say you're paying $1000/month you mean pesos not dollars right?

Oh yeah, pesos, should have made that clear.

 

[EricBluegrassFiddle]

Just curious when you all say you're paying $1000/month you mean pesos not dollars right?

$1000 en expensas? No that would definately be in pesos. I know rentals here where I live...average going price is around $4,000 to $4,500 pesos for a decent apartment right now....more in some cases depending location and amenities...

My 2 year contract is up soon...to be adjusted 20% for inflation....

 

[Girino]

Our contract simply reads:

Las gastos de electricidad, gas, municipalidad, ABL, AYSA (aguas), expensas con a cargo de La Locataria. Por otra parte queda a cargo de La Locadora los impuestos Rentas inmobiliario...

Anyway, if a contract states anything against a law, the law prevails. The point is that from my researches the law doesn't distinguish between ordinary and extraordinary expenses, nor tells who should pay which. It talks about "expensas comunes", which includes both. All of the webpages I found on the subject never reference to a law, but they all say the same thing about extraordinary-landlord's and ordinary-tenant's. Some even give example but it looks like they are made up for the sole purpose of stating the obvious.
For example: if installing a pool, it is extraordinary; if repairing a pump, it's ordinary. But if installing a newer pump, it is extraordinary... The point is how can I deal with somebody who is afraid that even a light bulb will become an extraordinary expense?! The many was so used to cabrones argentinos that now that he is being challenged he is losing his reason.

I don't think that 1000 ARS is an unreasonably high monthly fee, however the rent is skyrocketing and when signing the contract we shook hand over the promise to revise the amount after one year in case the proposed amounts did no longer reflect reality. I was paying around €400 one year ago, and I am paying €650 now (ARS > EUR_blue), which is NOT justifiable and for me it doesn't reflect the current reality - it is a fake currency exchange!
This place is not worth that kind of money and all of our other living expenses (food, transport, utilities) did not increase that much. We keep a very detailed spreadsheet of each and every centavo we spend, so I am pretty sure about it.

I don't trust my landlord - a month after moving in we discovered the heating was not working because they installed the wrong pipe kind during construction, so we stayed in a cold apartment for 2 months before works were carried out, basically tearing apart all of the walls to replace the hot water pipes, without hot water and with an apartment like a construction site... We refused to pay rent for that month - had we know it had to undergo to such major works, we would have never rented the place or we wouldn't have agreed to move in before the works were completed. Our landlord was very pissed off... imagine how much WE were pissed off!!!
We moved in and he knew the balcony door latches were not latching, he agreed to have them repaired... then when it was time to repair them he played dumb and said he thought we already dealt this issue with the previous tenant (?!).

This summer we stayed without water for a week plus random days because of a plumbing issue, but the building admin said it was a water company issue... except that just our building was affected (literally, our frente building had no issue... how come?!).
Now we have a water pump blackout between 11 PM and 9 AM because the family next door complained that the pump is noisy, the building manager said that the new pump is like this and to suck it up... so our neighbour every night climbed below the roof to shut it down... and turned it on in the morning when he needed to shower to go to work. Now they have installed a switch so he doesn't need to climb all the way up...

We are house hunting and that is another criollo nightmare. Yesterday we went to see a place where the agency and the landlord were the same person... and still wanted the agency commission plus twice the deposit because of Serafina the cat... regardlessly of the mouldy bathroom and the kitchen falling to piece.