Malvinas Spat ( United Kindgom beating war drums )

[tangobob]

The islands keep being the main issue in many posts here but as stated by many it is the 500 square kilometre exclusion zone that is unfair and the strongest issue

I do believe that Argentina will win this battle and already most of the world opinion is for them if you go on international forums . Christina is getting excellent international coverage over this issue and the joint statements from South American leaders including Chile, Brazil , and Mexico are highly encouraging. This issue unites all Argentinians and will benefit greatly the governing party.

People keep talking about self determination but if you look at the world and its history there are many cases that people have been made to move even though they were the majority and were clearly the rightful owners of the land. Two issues that come to mind was the atrocious war in Kosovo that decimated Serbia and the Cyprus issue that divided Greek and Turkish and seperated an island in half.

I did not see the world talking much about self determination for the original inhabitants who have had much better claims on their land than the Kelpers . Hypocrisy has no limits when you are the one with the military power.

Sorry but I do not quite understand what you are saying here: Are you saying that because Turkey invaded Cyprus and displaced all the Greek Cypriots that lived there, that it is right for Argentina to do the same?
You are wrong, the world does talk a lot about self determination, there as anywhere. The fact that no one is prepared to do squat about it is another issue.
I think, I know you better than to belive that you think that these people should be treated so badly.
Land disoutes are never easily resolved, in the past they were resolved with genocide, and more recently with huge refugee camps. It would make more sense if the world fixed its borders now and we all got on with making our own and everyone else's lives better.

 

[tangobob]

Well, I wasn't trying to catch you out - I can't find an actual account of either one, what you read or what I read at all; I've just found a couple of incidental statements in articles I've read on various news agencies. I was honestly hoping you'd found some reference to the actual event instead of someone referring to Cristina pulling out of the talks as a side note.

I understand, but I do not like to post things I cannot back up. You are welcome to ask for anything to be backed up and if I can refind what I read (even if it does not back me up) I will post it for you.

 

[malbec]

ElQueso, I am not trying to hide anything, I told you where I got the information I was posting. With my post I wanted to demonstrate you that there are two sides of the same coin. You systematically ignore any rights the Argentines might have to lay a claim on the islands, but if you read the text it is quite obvious we do indeed have good arguments.

Well, the English version of wikipedia (surely written at least in part by british people) fail to aknowledge that the Spanish were indeed the first to be on the islands:
"Simón de Alcazaba y Sotomayor y Alonso de Camargo las visitaron antes del año 1540"

The Argentines were expulsed by the British, according to the German Wiki:
"Am 2. Januar 1833 ankerte das britische Kriegsschiff Clio im Hafen von Puerto Louis. Der an Bord kommende argentinische Offizier wurde aufgefordert, die argentinische Flagge einzuholen, die britische aufzuziehen sowie die Inseln mitsamt der argentinischen Administration zu verlassen, was am 5. Januar geschah."
They had a flag and an administration, so it was more than probably an official representation.

So the British laid laid on the islands without the French had done so. Aha. If I sail to the UK and lay claim on the land I first spot it will be mine because I didin't know it had been claimed first. Nice reasoning.

"En 1830 nacieron en el archipiélago los primeros seres humanos malvinenses, todos argentinos, y entre ellos una hija del propio Luis Vernet: Malvina Vernet Sáez, nacida el 5 de febrero de 1830"
So, the first people born on the islands were Argentines. Not kelpers, who were shipped there after the expulsion of the Argentine residents.

As you can see history can be twisted in many ways, it depends on who is telling it. Please don't be so blind and admit that Argentina has also plausible arguments.

 

[malbec]

So the British laid laid on the islands without the French had done so.

Should be "So the British laid claim on the islands without knowing the French had done so."

 

[bigbadwolf]

At Monthly Review:

That there is oil in the Malvinas is no surprise to anyone. However, how much oil there is remains a question. For that, the key question turns out to be the minimum price of a barrel of oil that makes commercial exploitation viable and the type of crude available for extraction. What is the threshold price and what is the quality of the crude? Below the international price of $25 per barrel, according to the operators themselves (Rockhopper-Interim Report, 2008), the Malvinas oil extraction will be unviable. Today oil is trading at $77 a barrel, and all projections indicate that the prices will remain thereabout or even rise in coming years.

According to estimates by the same operators, the offshore petroleum potential of the islands would be a minimum of 6.525 billion barrels of oil. If these probable reserves -- equivalent to about US$502.425 million at $77 per barrel, yesterday's price -- are proven, the Malvinas oil will be more than three times the proven reserves of our country as of December 2008 (1.987 billion barrels, according to the Energy Ministry of Argentina).

The beginning of this final exploratory phase has, for Argentina (and UNASUR), not only geopolitical (a military base of a foreign power on national territory) and political (the only 21st-century colonial enclave in action) implications, but also fundamentally economic (the probable reserves on the islands equivalent to about US$502.425 million) and energy (if these reserves are proven, the lifespan of Argentina's proven reserves would extend from 6-7 years to about 27 years) ones. The British initiative greatly harms the economic and energy national security of Argentina.

 

[perry]

I Believe in self determination but also know the hypocrisy of the foreign powers who say one thing or do another.

Yes Tango I do have a emotional reason to feel the way that I do as my ancestral village in Cyprus is now occupied and the original inhabitants have been banished from their original lands continually occupied for over 2000 years. To top it off most of the original homes and lands were sold illegally to foreign purchasers and the majority were British. There was a case recently that a couple lost their home in favour of the original title holders in a favourable UK court ruling
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatnews/7027869/British-couple-lose-north-Cyprus-land-fight.html


Cyprus was divided up with the full consent of these powers and these same powers divided Serbia, Yugoslavia , India and many other lands . If you look through history you will see that the United Kindgom has been one the worst offenders. Ask the citizens of Northern Ireland about self determination and many other colonies scattered around the world .

You will find very little sympathy for the United Kindgom these days in the world and especially in Latin America there is unaminous support for Argentina . The issue of the 200 nautical miles ( 370 km) seems unfair and while I do feel sympathy for the Kelpers I also believe that Argentina deserves to be heard

 

[elhombresinnombre]

....The issue of the 500 square mile exclusion seems unfair....

Where does this figure, quoted variously throughout this thread as 500 square miles or 500 square kilometres come from? Five hundred square kilometres is about the size of Gran Buenos Aires and because area is a geometric, not arithmetic progression, 500 square miles is not a lot bigger.

 

[Futboljunkie]

It's a new rule by the world community to prevent conflicts in the future.

Does Argentina also withdraw there claim of there terroritial waters?

 

[tangobob]

I Believe in self determination but also know the hypocrisy of the foreign powers who say one thing or do another.

Yes Tango I do have a emotional reason to feel the way that I do as my ancestral village in Cyprus is now occupied and the original inhabitants have been banished from their original lands continually occupied for over 2000 years. To top it off most of the original homes and lands were sold illegally to foreign purchasers and the majority were British. There was a case recently that a couple lost their home in favour of the original title holders in a favourable UK court ruling
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatnews/7027869/British-couple-lose-north-Cyprus-land-fight.html


Cyprus was divided up with the full consent of these powers and these same powers divided Serbia, Yugoslavia , India and many other lands . If you look through history you will see that the United Kindgom has been one the worst offenders. Ask the citizens of Northern Ireland about self determination and many other colonies scattered around the world .

You will find very little sympathy for the United Kindgom these days in the world and especially in Latin America there is unaminous support for Argentina . The issue of the 500 square mile exclusion seems unfair and while I do feel sympathy for the Kelpers I also believe that Argentina deserves to be heard

That is not my understanding, I will check this out further but my understanding is that Cyprus was suposed to be protected by, Greece, Turkey, and the UK. After some sabre rattling Turkey took it into their own hands and invaded. I may be wrong if so tell me, but will check this out more.

 

[Moonwitch]

Why not????/

Holland and Norway won´t provide enough oil and Russia and central Asia is unreliable.