Massive increase in long distance and local rail fares

[sergio]

Desde mayo, el Gobierno aumenta 54% el boleto de tren en el AMBA y habrá una fuerte suba en los de larga distancia

El tramo mínimo pasará de $130 a $200; el valor de referencia de un pasaje ferroviario de Plaza Constitución a Mar del Plata subirá de $1197 a $25.431

www.lanacion.com.ar

Existing fares are too low but this increase is far too much given the level of service that is offered, especially for the Pinamar line where you have to switch at General Guido to a rundown 1970s Spanish rail car for the remainder of the journey.

 

[Quilombo]

Existing fares are too low but this increase is far too much given the level of service that is offered

This has been my complaint about all the increases broadly; I don't disagree that there needs to be an update with reality, but if my electricity bill is going to increase 300%, Edesur doesn't have any more excuses for fixing the low voltage lines in my neighborhood, and my Obra Social should be working with clinics that have next day turnos if it's going to cost $200/month.

People know things need fixing, what upsets many is that the services still suck, and now they're double or triple their cost.

 

[sergio]

Intercity train fares are far too low but the service is also substandard. There are lots of employees doing nothing but there seem to be few who clean the trains. The train that connects Guido with Pinamar is especially bad with filthy old toilets (the original broken wooden seats still there). In Britain you can get inexpensive advance purchase tickets if you plan ahead. Can't this system be implemented in Argentina? The system won't even allow ticket purchases more than a week or so before departure. The whole system needs updating with competent management, not just functionaries. Cutting subsidies alone is not the solution; corruption must be reduced and efficiency increased. Meanwhile people shouldn't be expected to see fare jumps of hundreds of percent.

 

[elhombresinnombre]

Apart from cleanliness and other operational issues, I think there are at least two other questions: how much does it cost to run a railway and how much should people be asked to pay?

The very poor - and you know exactly who I mean - couldn't afford the old prices anyway. They "Ride the Rails" and enter and leave the system by uregulated means and I presume the authorities turn a blind eye on purpose. The people who will be hit most badly will be those, like - but not limited to - the domestic cleaners in the other BAExpats thread who barely earn enough to get by (and in all honesty probably don't earn enough to get by) on current prices. I think it is urgently important to see that these are not the people who end up subsidising the system.

How much does it cost to run a railway? I'd be delighted to be corrected on this but as far as I know there is no country in the so-called First World that doesn't subsidise its rail system for the social benefits that brings. Amtrak in the USA receives government subsidy, doesn't it? In the UK, those lines that have not failed under private ownership and been brought back into state ownership are still subsidised by the state (although their private shareholders still received their dividends and bonuses - how does that happen?) In the UK I only know of two rail routes that receive no subsidy and they are high-priced, short-distance convenience-oriented airport lines.

So, it's going to cost about ARS25,000 to ride from Constitucíon to Mar del Plata. Getting some quotes from Google that appears to be about one-third of the current airfare with Aerolineas. The equivalent distance on Amtrak is about the same as the line from Washington DC to New York where the fares (again, from Google) range from 150% to 300% of this sum. In the UK, (again on a system subsidised by the state) passengers between London and Lancaster (again, roughly the same length of route) will pay between 350% and - wait for it - over 1000% more for their journey.


So.. how much does it really cost to run a railway? How much should passengers pay? How far should the state intervene?

 

[sergio]

Apart from cleanliness and other operational issues, I think there are at least two other questions: how much does it cost to run a railway and how much should people be asked to pay?

The very poor - and you know exactly who I mean - couldn't afford the old prices anyway. They "Ride the Rails" and enter and leave the system by uregulated means and I presume the authorities turn a blind eye on purpose. The people who will be hit most badly will be those, like - but not limited to - the domestic cleaners in the other BAExpats thread who barely earn enough to get by (and in all honesty probably don't earn enough to get by) on current prices. I think it is urgently important to see that these are not the people who end up subsidising the system.

How much does it cost to run a railway? I'd be delighted to be corrected on this but as far as I know there is no country in the so-called First World that doesn't subsidise its rail system for the social benefits that brings. Amtrak in the USA receives government subsidy, doesn't it? In the UK, those lines that have not failed under private ownership and been brought back into state ownership are still subsidised by the state (although their private shareholders still received their dividends and bonuses - how does that happen?) In the UK I only know of two rail routes that receive no subsidy and they are high-priced, short-distance convenience-oriented airport lines.

So, it's going to cost about ARS25,000 to ride from Constitucíon to Mar del Plata. Getting some quotes from Google that appears to be about one-third of the current airfare with Aerolineas. The equivalent distance on Amtrak is about the same as the line from Washington DC to New York where the fares (again, from Google) range from 150% to 300% of this sum. In the UK, (again on a system subsidised by the state) passengers between London and Lancaster (again, roughly the same length of route) will pay between 350% and - wait for it - over 1000% more for their journey.


So.. how much does it really cost to run a railway? How much should passengers pay? How far should the state intervene?

You are right in saying that around the world governments subsidise railways in the public interest. This is something that should continue in Argentina however operations need to be made more efficient. Current intercity fares on trains to the coast seem to be about $5 USD. That's far too low however I don't think a comparison to the US or UK is relevant when incomes are a small fraction of US or British incomes. And if you check carefully, even in the US you can find Northeast Corridor fares for $10 USD if you purchase in advance or travel at off peak hours. Same for the UK -- advance purchase tickets can be a fraction of the full fare. Anyway, regarding the actual costs of running a railway in Argentina: given all the inefficiency (and possible corruption) how can we know? As I said, you can see loads of employees doing nothing. At Pinamar and Guido they have lots of vigilancia ordering passengers into queues and generally doing nothing of any use. Just cutting subsidies and raising prices won't solve the issues that plague Argentina.

 

[Jimbob]

This has been my complaint about all the increases broadly; I don't disagree that there needs to be an update with reality, but if my electricity bill is going to increase 300%, Edesur doesn't have any more excuses for fixing the low voltage lines in my neighborhood, and my Obra Social should be working with clinics that have next day turnos if it's going to cost $200/month.

People know things need fixing, what upsets many is that the services still suck, and now they're double or triple their cost.

Thing is though the money needs to be there before the service can be improved, and lets be honest it has been abused and is quite frankly a disaster because of years of gross underfunding.

But I agree if things don't turn around and the extra disappears then I'll get on their backs.

Also with regards the long distance rises it will make travel financially viable meaning more trains and more importantly ticket availability as at the moment its almost impossible to get one when it costs about a dollar to travel all that way.

 

[sergio]

Thing is though the money needs to be there before the service can be improved, and lets be honest it has been abused and is quite frankly a disaster because of years of gross underfunding.

But I agree if things don't turn around and the extra disappears then I'll get on their backs.

Also with regards the long distance rises it will make travel financially viable meaning more trains and more importantly ticket availability as at the moment its almost impossible to get one when it costs about a dollar to travel all that way

Service could be improved now if they had better management and saved some money by eliminating unnecessary employees. I don't know what makes you think there will be more trains but you're right that radically higher fares will reduce the number of people who can afford to travel so tickets are more likely to be available for expats.

 

[antipodean]

This has been my complaint about all the increases broadly; I don't disagree that there needs to be an update with reality, but if my electricity bill is going to increase 300%, Edesur doesn't have any more excuses for fixing the low voltage lines in my neighborhood, and my Obra Social should be working with clinics that have next day turnos if it's going to cost $200/month.

People know things need fixing, what upsets many is that the services still suck, and now they're double or triple their cost.

While I agree in principle, how is it possible to expect any business to use the additional money being made from higher prices to make multi-million dollar investments to glaze of years or decades of neglect and mismanagement after just a few days, weeks or months? Or the business lending industry is suddenly booming with affordable interest rates? Or the perhaps the concept of cash-flow doesn’t exist here…

Also should point out that many of these businesses (eg the trains) are not necessarily receiving more money than they were receiving before despite now having higher prices, they are simply no longer receiving money from the government in the form of subsidies (paid for by everyone through inflation) and now just need to actually earn their money from customers who actually use their business.

 

[sergio]

While I agree in principle, how is it possible to expect any business to use the additional money being made from higher prices to make multi-million dollar investments to glaze of years or decades of neglect and mismanagement after just a few days, weeks or months? Or the business lending industry is suddenly booming with affordable interest rates? Or the perhaps the concept of cash-flow doesn’t exist here…

Also should point out that many of these businesses (eg the trains) are not necessarily receiving more money than they were receiving before despite now having higher prices, they are simply no longer receiving money from the government in the form of subsidies (paid for by everyone through inflation) and now just need to actually earn their money from customers who actually use their business.

The decision to invest heavily in the intercity passenger train network that Argentina needs isn't likely to be made under the current laissez faire capitalist government. The most we can hope for is that the system will be made more efficient with better management, more oversight of how and where money is spent, elimination of unnecessary positions and better use of essential personnel, the implementation of more efficient ticket sales (tickets need to be available for sale months - not days - in advance with dynamic pricing implemented) etc. In reality the Kirchners appropriated money for intercity passenger trains but let's just say finances were not too transparent. At some future time a new government may decide that investment in intercity trains would benefit the nation. As such an investment is almost certainly never going to be assumed by a private business, I don't think anyone can see it occuring under present political circumstances. Nevertheles, reforms can be made in the short term.