Melancholy for my former country … and how it’s changing
- Thread starter Millie
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What was once good for certain individuals was horrible for others. In order for a lot of individuals to keep that happiness the country decided to greatly mistreat and abuse other parts of the population. The country was built on slavery. A lot of people prefer to go back to times where hatred and racism was purely accepted and swept under the rug. And it's not just about things like racism, but a wide variety of topics. The bottom line is that the country is more liveable now for many other individuals than in the past. I'm not judging you for your thoughts. I do not know anything about you so therefore I don't have anything negative to say towards you. But I for one disliked how things were in the past more than I do today. Although things are still screwed up today.
There is a lot that could be written on this topic. Some people, even during the pandemic, seem to spend lots of time and money constantly travelling between their original country and the new country. Doing this, it is probably possible to manage to remain "current" in each place and to some extent anchored a little in each. Others discover that they can spend most of their time in the new country but remain located and mentally anchored in the home country via consuming home country media, by maintaining friendships and family connections virtually, and by mixing in the new country with people from the home country (or from any country that isn't the new country). A new area of anthropology is investigating this phenomenon. Others become so immersed in the new country that they lose all interest in or affinity with the home country. They change and grow. And, over time, the home country changes (but does not necessarily grow, and, indeed, may even regress). So inevitably, a form of alienation arises. A bit like some marriages: the partners grow apart.
It may be better to focus on the humorous things this can lead to. I go back infrequently, due initially to alienation and more recently to border closures (which, of course, increase the alienation). Whenever I do, I find I am a kind of Rip Van Winkle. Two examples spring to mind from my last trip "home": I tried to give coins to a checkout operator at a small supermarket so she could round up the change (a complete failure because she had no idea what I was aiming at with this old courtesy, having, I suspect, rarely had to actually operate the cash register in a place where everything is tap and go); I tried to buy McDonalds by presenting myself at the counter with cash (the staff had to call an assistant manager to sort out the confusion because nobody in living memory had tried that particular manoeuvre: I eventually discovered there is no counter, no person to take the order, and no cash, just a big touchscreen and a credit card reader). These are examples of intercultural failures, not of the usual kind between two different cultures but instead between an older version and a newer version of the same culture. Curious.
It may be better to focus on the humorous things this can lead to. I go back infrequently, due initially to alienation and more recently to border closures (which, of course, increase the alienation). Whenever I do, I find I am a kind of Rip Van Winkle. Two examples spring to mind from my last trip "home": I tried to give coins to a checkout operator at a small supermarket so she could round up the change (a complete failure because she had no idea what I was aiming at with this old courtesy, having, I suspect, rarely had to actually operate the cash register in a place where everything is tap and go); I tried to buy McDonalds by presenting myself at the counter with cash (the staff had to call an assistant manager to sort out the confusion because nobody in living memory had tried that particular manoeuvre: I eventually discovered there is no counter, no person to take the order, and no cash, just a big touchscreen and a credit card reader). These are examples of intercultural failures, not of the usual kind between two different cultures but instead between an older version and a newer version of the same culture. Curious.
These are my long winded thoughts on the 1st anniversary of the Capitol riot:
I miss the conveniences of American life, some family and friends, but that's about it. I turned 18 during the great recession and I saw 1st hand what George Carlin meant with his bit about "The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it." While I never understood the appeal of Make America Great Again personally as America was never great to begin with in my opinion, I do understand why Trump won, and why many, if not all of us, have family members who have been lost to the Trump/QAnon/Anti-vaxxer cult, and only some of the blame is on Republicans. January 6th was a surprise to me not because it happened, but because it didn't happen earlier.
For 50 years, Republicans and Democrats have worked together to hollow-out the middle class and destroy upward economic mobility. The difference is Republicans are simply better at messaging, and transformed themselves in to a revanchist party for the white working class to take advantage of the very people whose lives they destroyed. You might be asking, what do I mean by this? Starting with Nixon, and accelerating under Reagan and Clinton, classical liberal, followed by neoliberal economic policies were pursued and adopted by both parties, free trade agreements were signed and ratified by large bipartisan majorities in the Senate, and the social safety net was slashed and burned on the lie that as goods became cheaper, and taxes for the wealthy and corporations reduced, the money would trickle down to the lower classes. As we all know, this never happened, and instead we saw the large, sustained, transfer of wealth from the bottom and the middle to the top. As for this being bipartisan? Well, Alan Greenspan was the chair of the fed under 4 presidents who basically shared the same economic beliefs, despite Clinton being a Democrat, and that's just one example, of many.
Now why does this matter? Well, when the middle class stopped growing, and jobs went overseas, the income and sales taxes went away too. Instead of raising taxes on those who profited from this, counties and states opted to cut education funding, social programs, library budgets, public transit, you name it, to make up the difference. We're all familiar with what happened to Detroit, but there's hundreds of Detroits across the rust belt and Midwest, and many of us have driven through them, or seen them featured in articles and documentaries about the opioid epidemic, counties that can only afford 4 days of school a week, and so called "deaths of despair". These also happen to be the hometowns of many of the most diehard Trump supporters too, because while he lied about caring about these towns and wanting to help them, he did identify their pain as real, and stemming from economic destruction, and this is where MAGA comes from: nostalgia, revanchism, and fear. Like an infected wound these things fester, and when you and your children have a lower quality of life than your parents, or at least compared to when you were a child, and you watch FOX and OAN every night and hear Hannity talking about fake electoral fraud, when your Facebook feed is a confirmation bias that makes money off of rage, filled with "news" about "pedophile Democrats", you get people who have nothing to lose decide to storm the Capitol in the belief that they are 21st Century versions of Paul Revere going to save America from continued decline. It's easy to dismiss these people as idiots and cranks, but something broke them and caused them to become the literal flag wearing gun toters they are, and that something was/is America.
A year into Biden's presidency I am convinced, just like he said when he ran, nothing would fundamentally change, and it hasn't, and this is why I'm not optimistic for America's future, and why I personally don't have melancholy when I see and read about the riot and think about our country overall, as this is the America I know, the one I grew up with. Empirically the America of yesteryear never was, otherwise we wouldn't be in this position, so the reality is that there's nothing to go back to, and the future, while not written in stone, is clear to me in it's likely outcome: The Republicans will double down on being the party of white working class grievances/anxiety and QAnon/Anti-vaxxers/maskers, while the Democrats will continue to pursue, with shrinking success, college educated suburbanites who clutch their pearls at Trump for being too brash (despite otherwise agreeing with him), while tanking among millennials and zoomers by ratfucking (pardon the term, but it is a real one; I've linked to the Wikipedia article) the candidates and positions they support, they'll take black voters' votes for granted, and do stupid, cringey things like the kneeling in Kente cloth in the rotunda, or having the cast of Hamilton preform via Zoom on CSPAN today that just makes your average Americans beg them to just stop.
These are the things I see when I reflect on America, the Capitol Riot anniversary, and why I'm not quite indifferent, but am most definitely not surprised. Trump was undoubtedly an awful president, but I often find myself wondering if the reason so many American liberals find him repulsive is because he's the most American president of the last hundred years: he's greedy, he's racist, he's lazy, he's arrogant, he's rude, he's vane, and he's proudly stupid: he's the telos of America, personified, and I believe that's what upsets Democrats the most. In closing, these criticisms/thoughts on America shouldn't be interpreted as an endorsement of Argentina, I write an equally critical long form post about my adoptive home, but I'll save that for next year's election perhaps
I miss the conveniences of American life, some family and friends, but that's about it. I turned 18 during the great recession and I saw 1st hand what George Carlin meant with his bit about "The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it." While I never understood the appeal of Make America Great Again personally as America was never great to begin with in my opinion, I do understand why Trump won, and why many, if not all of us, have family members who have been lost to the Trump/QAnon/Anti-vaxxer cult, and only some of the blame is on Republicans. January 6th was a surprise to me not because it happened, but because it didn't happen earlier.
For 50 years, Republicans and Democrats have worked together to hollow-out the middle class and destroy upward economic mobility. The difference is Republicans are simply better at messaging, and transformed themselves in to a revanchist party for the white working class to take advantage of the very people whose lives they destroyed. You might be asking, what do I mean by this? Starting with Nixon, and accelerating under Reagan and Clinton, classical liberal, followed by neoliberal economic policies were pursued and adopted by both parties, free trade agreements were signed and ratified by large bipartisan majorities in the Senate, and the social safety net was slashed and burned on the lie that as goods became cheaper, and taxes for the wealthy and corporations reduced, the money would trickle down to the lower classes. As we all know, this never happened, and instead we saw the large, sustained, transfer of wealth from the bottom and the middle to the top. As for this being bipartisan? Well, Alan Greenspan was the chair of the fed under 4 presidents who basically shared the same economic beliefs, despite Clinton being a Democrat, and that's just one example, of many.
Now why does this matter? Well, when the middle class stopped growing, and jobs went overseas, the income and sales taxes went away too. Instead of raising taxes on those who profited from this, counties and states opted to cut education funding, social programs, library budgets, public transit, you name it, to make up the difference. We're all familiar with what happened to Detroit, but there's hundreds of Detroits across the rust belt and Midwest, and many of us have driven through them, or seen them featured in articles and documentaries about the opioid epidemic, counties that can only afford 4 days of school a week, and so called "deaths of despair". These also happen to be the hometowns of many of the most diehard Trump supporters too, because while he lied about caring about these towns and wanting to help them, he did identify their pain as real, and stemming from economic destruction, and this is where MAGA comes from: nostalgia, revanchism, and fear. Like an infected wound these things fester, and when you and your children have a lower quality of life than your parents, or at least compared to when you were a child, and you watch FOX and OAN every night and hear Hannity talking about fake electoral fraud, when your Facebook feed is a confirmation bias that makes money off of rage, filled with "news" about "pedophile Democrats", you get people who have nothing to lose decide to storm the Capitol in the belief that they are 21st Century versions of Paul Revere going to save America from continued decline. It's easy to dismiss these people as idiots and cranks, but something broke them and caused them to become the literal flag wearing gun toters they are, and that something was/is America.
A year into Biden's presidency I am convinced, just like he said when he ran, nothing would fundamentally change, and it hasn't, and this is why I'm not optimistic for America's future, and why I personally don't have melancholy when I see and read about the riot and think about our country overall, as this is the America I know, the one I grew up with. Empirically the America of yesteryear never was, otherwise we wouldn't be in this position, so the reality is that there's nothing to go back to, and the future, while not written in stone, is clear to me in it's likely outcome: The Republicans will double down on being the party of white working class grievances/anxiety and QAnon/Anti-vaxxers/maskers, while the Democrats will continue to pursue, with shrinking success, college educated suburbanites who clutch their pearls at Trump for being too brash (despite otherwise agreeing with him), while tanking among millennials and zoomers by ratfucking (pardon the term, but it is a real one; I've linked to the Wikipedia article) the candidates and positions they support, they'll take black voters' votes for granted, and do stupid, cringey things like the kneeling in Kente cloth in the rotunda, or having the cast of Hamilton preform via Zoom on CSPAN today that just makes your average Americans beg them to just stop.
These are the things I see when I reflect on America, the Capitol Riot anniversary, and why I'm not quite indifferent, but am most definitely not surprised. Trump was undoubtedly an awful president, but I often find myself wondering if the reason so many American liberals find him repulsive is because he's the most American president of the last hundred years: he's greedy, he's racist, he's lazy, he's arrogant, he's rude, he's vane, and he's proudly stupid: he's the telos of America, personified, and I believe that's what upsets Democrats the most. In closing, these criticisms/thoughts on America shouldn't be interpreted as an endorsement of Argentina, I write an equally critical long form post about my adoptive home, but I'll save that for next year's election perhaps
These are the things I see when I reflect on America, the Capitol Riot anniversary, and why I'm not quite indifferent, but am most definitely not surprised. Trump was undoubtedly an awful president, but I often find myself wondering if the reason so many American liberals find him repulsive is because he's the most American president of the last hundred years: he's greedy, he's racist, he's lazy, he's arrogant, he's rude, he's vane, and he's proudly stupid: he's the telos of America, personified, and I believe that's what upsets Democrats the most. In closing, these criticisms/thoughts on America shouldn't be interpreted as an endorsement of Argentina, I write an equally critical long form post about my adoptive home, but I'll save that for next year's election perhaps
USA got exactly what they voted for with him. He spoke to the bitterness and darkness in their heart. He represented them to a T. He did not hide his racism like previous presidents did. He wore it proudly. I do feel sorry for those minorities and more open minded people that did not choose him but but unfortunately for them, he won according to their rules.
The only thing I do not understand with the Trump crowd is why they live in a place like Argentina or the rest of latin america amongst brown, indigenous, or people of colour then spout their love for him. Is USA not the best? Why are you retiring or living here in a "shithole"? Why do live amongst all the brown people you hate? I don't understand that.
As to the rest of the thread. I do understand the feeling of losing your country of birth. Seeing the July 2021 riots in South Africa really filled me with despair and anger and sadness. This coming after the poor handling of COVID and really sad state of the economy really reinforced and justified my reasons to leave.
I also felt like I never fitted in. You are not part of the white people because you don't share their racist or casual racist beliefs and you don't fit in with the black people because you are viewed with suspicion because you are white. Other race groups are very insular as well and are not too welcoming. Moving here was a natural step once I got married. Its not at all a bed of roses and there are so many things wrong but its different and hurts less and feels more welcoming.
Alfred_Arnold
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Correct, you don't understand that. The constant focus on race isn't a universal priority, or even remote interest to some (also, to paraphrase the Tio Beto, the argies descended from boats). "Shithole" status depends on how you play the hand. Retirees don't live in the Matanza nor near the Grabois boys campsites. I'm glad you feel more welcome in AR than ZA.
Redpossum
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This. I was up at Camp Pendleton going through the Devil Pups program in the summer of 1974 when Dick Nixon resigned. The manner in which the DI's conveyed the information to us was grim, as though they were announcing the end of the world. It wasn't the end of the world, but it was the beginning of the end of the USA.
And the knowledge that what happened on Jan 6 was not what we were told. I've seen the video of the security guards opening the doors and letting the protestors inside, and they entered quietly and peacefully, in a calm, ordinary manner. Which means the whole thing was an operation.
I despise the Republican and Democrat parties equally; I'm not speaking against the ordinary people, but the party machinery is rotten to the core.
Trump was an idiot, and a terrible president, not to mention a megalomaniac of biblical proportions.
Biden is an idiot, and a terrible president, not to mention visibly senile.
Anyhow, we are all here now, all expats together. It would be foolish for us to argue amongst ourselves about the three ring circus taking place in Yanquilandia.
In the second Jurassic Park book by Michael Crichton, there was a chapter heading I recall clearly, "as the Edge of Chaos approaches, survival of both groups and individuals becomes increasingly unlikely."
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I feel the phenomenon of emigrating from most developed countries is often affected by grass is always greener syndrome.
At some moment people often try to justify their life choices by focusing on perceived "push" factors rather than "pull" factors, which often just sounds to outsiders like making mountains out of mole hills or trying justifying why things "are not perfect, but they are better" when faced with their old reality vs. new reality as some kind of coping mechanism.
Having lived in many countries around the world, I can say that no developed countries are truly better or worse than other such countries. Obviously some will be better in certain areas of life than others but its enjoyment will always depend on your situation in life first and foremost. There are no utopias. There will always be locals who would gladly live where you came from to "escape" whatever gripe they have and see your "problems" as non-problems.
So when some people (fortunately a tiny minority) I have encountered emigrating from developed countries try to make out like where they are coming from is somehow universally "worse" for everyone than where they are now, or where they are now is somehow "better" for everyone, it makes me chuckle like watching a cat chasing its tail.
For me the first step to consider to address ones moments of frustration or bewilderment in migration. Change, circumstance and culture.
When any relationship comes to an end, one needs to look at it from all angles. Sometimes you are actually a victim of something outside your control, but more often than not, you're not, you're just making a decision for something else. While some migrants may feel bitter or disillusioned towards their homeland, maintaining objectivity is important for sanity. Net migration indicators are useful to know if you are part of an exodus due to the actual failure of your country (e.g. Venezuela) or you are simply a discerning individual from a country that still manages to pull in far more people than it pushes out - even if you don't like it - in other-words, it's you and that's ok.
Using an example we all share in common, Argentina. Net migration is 0.093% and on-track to returning to the negative figures it had every year between 1992-2012. By comparison Germany's net migration is between 3.0-5.0%; USA 2.0-3.0%; South Africa 2.0%; Canada 6.0-7.0%, Australia 5.0-6.0%; Singapore 4.0-5.0% etc.
There is no shortage of Argentines emigrating for the same disillusionment mentioned by others from foreign countries: Economic decline, opportunities, cost of living, political extremism, drug abuse, failing infrastructure, "Trump" (aka Peron et al or whoever you don't like), immigrants, corruption, excessive tax burdens, insecurity, cultural decay etc. They also sum it up by saying it’s “Argentina is not the country it once was”. The key difference however is the scale of emigration vs. that of other developed countries indicating problems that physically impact more individuals directly - not only the things an individual sees on TV happening to others in their community and does not like due to an idealogical conflict. Of course this is not a concern for most immigrants here who have never known “Argentina the way it used to be” and have the economic means to be able to overlook many of these issues (or come from genuinely worse situations that issues here pale in comparison.)
Likewise most Argentine emigrants simply don't care that the US or Denmark are also "not the countries they used to be" because for them too the grass is still greener.
At some moment people often try to justify their life choices by focusing on perceived "push" factors rather than "pull" factors, which often just sounds to outsiders like making mountains out of mole hills or trying justifying why things "are not perfect, but they are better" when faced with their old reality vs. new reality as some kind of coping mechanism.
Having lived in many countries around the world, I can say that no developed countries are truly better or worse than other such countries. Obviously some will be better in certain areas of life than others but its enjoyment will always depend on your situation in life first and foremost. There are no utopias. There will always be locals who would gladly live where you came from to "escape" whatever gripe they have and see your "problems" as non-problems.
So when some people (fortunately a tiny minority) I have encountered emigrating from developed countries try to make out like where they are coming from is somehow universally "worse" for everyone than where they are now, or where they are now is somehow "better" for everyone, it makes me chuckle like watching a cat chasing its tail.
For me the first step to consider to address ones moments of frustration or bewilderment in migration. Change, circumstance and culture.
- There is no such thing as a country "the same as it used to be". Change is constant and in some ways only getting faster and appearing more dramatic with technology, demographic and environmental factors in every country on earth. Longing for yesteryear is natural as when people get older or into their comfort zones they stop making as much effort to keep up with change - people quickly get left behind and feel alienated when confronted with a different reality and pissed off that others have been more adept at keeping up with it or busy directing it.
- There is such thing as more opportunity. Economies are not equal. No one has unlimited economic resources and very few are literally the best (e.g. irreplaceable) at what they do. This means finding a place where your money or potential matches your desired lifestyle and/ or a place where you feel you have a chance at reaching your ambitions, competing more effectively or filling a gap that needs to be filled.
- There is such thing as a better cultural fit. We all have our individual beliefs and values. Some places will simply offer a culture and lifestyle more aligned or interesting to your own ideals and interests than others - just don't expect them to stay ideal forever, or its back to square one.
When any relationship comes to an end, one needs to look at it from all angles. Sometimes you are actually a victim of something outside your control, but more often than not, you're not, you're just making a decision for something else. While some migrants may feel bitter or disillusioned towards their homeland, maintaining objectivity is important for sanity. Net migration indicators are useful to know if you are part of an exodus due to the actual failure of your country (e.g. Venezuela) or you are simply a discerning individual from a country that still manages to pull in far more people than it pushes out - even if you don't like it - in other-words, it's you and that's ok.
Using an example we all share in common, Argentina. Net migration is 0.093% and on-track to returning to the negative figures it had every year between 1992-2012. By comparison Germany's net migration is between 3.0-5.0%; USA 2.0-3.0%; South Africa 2.0%; Canada 6.0-7.0%, Australia 5.0-6.0%; Singapore 4.0-5.0% etc.
There is no shortage of Argentines emigrating for the same disillusionment mentioned by others from foreign countries: Economic decline, opportunities, cost of living, political extremism, drug abuse, failing infrastructure, "Trump" (aka Peron et al or whoever you don't like), immigrants, corruption, excessive tax burdens, insecurity, cultural decay etc. They also sum it up by saying it’s “Argentina is not the country it once was”. The key difference however is the scale of emigration vs. that of other developed countries indicating problems that physically impact more individuals directly - not only the things an individual sees on TV happening to others in their community and does not like due to an idealogical conflict. Of course this is not a concern for most immigrants here who have never known “Argentina the way it used to be” and have the economic means to be able to overlook many of these issues (or come from genuinely worse situations that issues here pale in comparison.)
Likewise most Argentine emigrants simply don't care that the US or Denmark are also "not the countries they used to be" because for them too the grass is still greener.
I would like to add to my earlier post …
1) Context is everything; people’s personal experiences and values shape their context/ point of view and therefore their priorities and value systems.
Remember the Pyramid of Needs ,( E. Fromm, I think) we learned about in school? No one will worry about whether or not they can afford a necklace if they can’t even buy a bottle of milk.
2) Decisions about where to spend your life are personal… but having said that, not everyone has the luxury of leaving their home country : some can’t afford it, some live in war zones..
3) In my circumstances, which are private , if I had stayed in the U S , I was headed towards suicidality. No drugs, no drinking: a combination of hellish circumstances that I went through and don’t wish on anyone. It was never my life plan to be able to have a peaceful and gratifying new life here, because I had never thought about it ,until a few years ago when I met someone who is Argentine , but I have and I am at peace for the first time in my life. I’m a free agent, but at the same time. I owe this rebirth to a last thread of tenacity , bravery for trying to start life over, and Argentina, my home now.
1) Context is everything; people’s personal experiences and values shape their context/ point of view and therefore their priorities and value systems.
Remember the Pyramid of Needs ,( E. Fromm, I think) we learned about in school? No one will worry about whether or not they can afford a necklace if they can’t even buy a bottle of milk.
2) Decisions about where to spend your life are personal… but having said that, not everyone has the luxury of leaving their home country : some can’t afford it, some live in war zones..
3) In my circumstances, which are private , if I had stayed in the U S , I was headed towards suicidality. No drugs, no drinking: a combination of hellish circumstances that I went through and don’t wish on anyone. It was never my life plan to be able to have a peaceful and gratifying new life here, because I had never thought about it ,until a few years ago when I met someone who is Argentine , but I have and I am at peace for the first time in my life. I’m a free agent, but at the same time. I owe this rebirth to a last thread of tenacity , bravery for trying to start life over, and Argentina, my home now.
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I must have watched a different channel, the one that showed the MAGA crowd escalating the walls and attacking guards with flagpoles, fence sections, and shields, to enter the Capitol through broken doors and windows.
Frankly, I fail to see what's the point of such a misleading statement - not to say, lie. Anyone can look up videos of the January 6 attack in YouTube, and watch what really happened.
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