Newtown, Ct School Shooting

[demokritos]

I knew it wouldnt be long before the attack on guns was brought into the thread.. It is terrible what happened and prayers going for the families of those children.

This story didnt make much headlines, I guess because it wasnt in the US or involve guns.

http://www.google.co...7215c7a1646.2a1

""Twenty-two elementary school students were stabbed, so was an adult villager" but none of the victims died, the official, who declined to give his name, told AFP."

 

[nicoenarg]

""Twenty-two elementary school students were stabbed, so was an adult villager" but none of the victims died, the official, who declined to give his name, told AFP."

China has seen several violent attacks against children over the past two years, including a spate of five incidents in 2010 which killed 15 children and two adults and wounded more than 80.

http://en.wikipedia....ina_(2010–2011)

I think the point Hannstew was making was that we should refrain from politicizing this...way to go people. And on the note of politicizing this, let's ban knives next...and while we're at it, let's ban subways since that one dude in NY used it to kill a guy. Let's, God forbid, not look at the root of the problem which is mentally unstable individuals! Let's just focus on banning sh*t until we are left with, I don't know, cotton candy and until some mentally unstable individual shoves cotton candy down someone's throat and tries to choke them to death.

Hey...and then we can ban cotton candy too.,..who's with me!?

 

[demokritos]

China has seen several violent attacks against children over the past two years, including a spate of five incidents in 2010 which killed 15 children and two adults and wounded more than 80.

http://en.wikipedia....ina_(2010–2011)

I think the point Hannstew was making was that we should refrain from politicizing this...

His comment regarding the linked article was as follows:

"[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]I guess because it wasnt in the US or involve guns."[/background]

Which is an attempt to further politicize the conversation and reframe it against gun-control. I actually think that's fine, although the particular article he linked serves better as an argument for stricter gun control to prevent fatalities.

Posting articles about violent attacks on a public forum is inherently political; there's nothing shameful in recognizing that this is a societal problem especially acute in the United States, and that there may exist solutions which would mitigate its severity. Better/more accessible mental healthcare, stricter gun regulations, less sensationalism are all possibilities.

Your reaction seems to be that this a normal part of a functioning, free society, and that we shouldn't do anything about it. That's fine, although I think the comparison to banning cotton candy is especially sophomoric.

 

[nicoenarg]

His comment regarding the linked article was as follows:

"[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]I guess because it wasnt in the US or involve guns."[/background]

Which is an attempt to further politicize the conversation and reframe it against gun-control. I actually think that's fine, although the particular article he linked serves better as an argument for stricter gun control to prevent fatalities.

Posting articles about violent attacks on a public forum is inherently political; there's nothing shameful in recognizing that this is a societal problem especially acute in the United States, and that there may exist solutions which would mitigate its severity. Better/more accessible mental healthcare, stricter gun regulations, less sensationalism are all possibilities.

Your reaction seems to be that this a normal part of a functioning, free society, and that we shouldn't do anything about it. That's fine, although I think the comparison to banning cotton candy is especially sophomoric.

I think selective reading is one of the biggest problems with the members on this forum, one of the things that never makes discussing anything worthwhile.

I said:

[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]Let's, God forbid, not look at the root of the problem which is mentally unstable individuals![/background]

I admit it was sarcastic and may have not been easily understood by you but I think the main problem here is not guns (guns can't do sh*t on their own), its the people, especially the mentally unstable ones. The mother of this guy knew he had problems, yet she protected him. There's a whole can of worms there.

As for my comments on cotton candy being "sophomoric": That is sophomoric yet another poster saying, "Yeah he was mentally unstable but should we really blame that?! Or should we take away the guns?" I am not as polite as you so I am just going to say that idiotic statement and the like right there is the crux of the problem. People in our post modernistic BS ridden society only want to fix symptoms and not the root of the problem.

The root of the problem is that the guy needed help and never got any (at least from the stories that are coming out). The mother knew the guy was off somehow but didn't do anything. There is a stigma in the US for having children or spouses or whatnot who are mentally unstable. People feel ashamed of admitting that someone they love have a problem. People are offended if someone points it out. THAT is the problem, not the damn gun. People should be educated about mental illnesses but hey, when have the governments ever liked educated people?

Now I have never owned a gun in my life and I have lived in societies where owning guns were not allowed so my point is not one of "don't you take my weapons away!" But my point that I am making is that the moment you or anyone else here tries to "fix" these kinds of problems by "taking away the guns", that same moment you guys start to sound like those brainless idiots who suggest that the woman who got raped could have avoided it only if she was more covered--maybe put all women in those walking-tents aka burqas and you've eliminated rape.

That is f***ed up thinking and that's my problem with it.

So, sophomoric? Well the argument where GUNS are blamed and not perpetrators doesn't deserve any serious consideration anyway but still I have made an effort, an effort that I expect will meet the response, "but oh my GAWD, GUNS, EVIL!" or some sh*t like that!

 

[demokritos]

The root of the problem is that the guy needed help and never got any (at least from the stories that are coming out). The mother knew the guy was off somehow but didn't do anything. There is a stigma in the US for having children or spouses or whatnot who are mentally unstable. People feel ashamed of admitting that someone they love have a problem. People are offended if someone points it out.

I agree with everything you're saying here, and you're right that I missed it the first time - your cotton candy example was extremely distracting . However, I don't think this is incompatible with stricter gun regulation, and I don't think people who point out that if the perpetrator had not had access to guns, the situation would likely have been completely different are brainless idiots. There are more slightly more automobile-related fatalities than gun-fatalities on a yearly basis in the United States (33k auto deaths 31k gun deaths in 2009), yet automobiles require a driver's license including a competence & safety test, with the license renewed every 4 (I think) years, a vehicle inspection renewed every year, liability insurance, etc. Depending on locality, buying and keeping a gun is much easier, especially in private sales.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/injury.htm

 

[nicoenarg]

I agree with everything you're saying here, and you're right that I missed it the first time - your cotton candy example was extremely distracting . However, I don't think this is incompatible with stricter gun regulation, and I don't think people who point out that if the perpetrator had not had access to guns, the situation would likely have been completely different are brainless idiots. There are more slightly more automobile-related fatalities than gun-fatalities on a yearly basis in the United States (33k auto deaths 31k gun deaths in 2009), yet automobiles require a driver's license including a competence & safety test, with the license renewed every 4 (I think) years, a vehicle inspection renewed every year, liability insurance, etc. Depending on locality, buying and keeping a gun is much easier, especially in private sales.


http://en.wikipedia....in_U.S._by_year
http://www.cdc.gov/n...tats/injury.htm

I am sure great arguments can be made against people being able to buy firearms at random however any such suggestion will not and can not be taken seriously by me if it doesn't include dealing with the root of the problem. And no, no one can guarantee the situation might have been different. What if he made molotov cocktails and threw them at children because he didn't have access to guns? What if he took somebody's car (like he took his mother's guns) and starting running children over at random?

Again, the reason I don't have any respect for most of the arguments made against guns is that people think the fault lies squarely at the gun and not the individual.

Again, any serious "stricter gun control" argument has to come with "families have to deal with mentally unstable individuals" or I am going to keep on pushing my agenda that everything but cotton candy be banned.

 

[demokritos]

Also, another part of a possible solution which I think is equally key to the gun/mental health parts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PezlFNTGWv4#t=1m40s

 

[scotttswan]

Its terrible what happened, people say that its happening more and more but i saw this somewhere else

It seems pretty consistent over the years.

AOL claims they have actually dropped.

Maybe they have moved from people "going postal" to kids shooting up schools in recent years though.

Easy access to guns does nothing to help, the school also had recently had a security upgrade and had a police officer on site.

I remember Dunblane in Scotland, this echoes the horror of what happened there. My thoughts are with the families who are suffering because of this.

 

[Nounou]

[background=rgb(252,252,252)]Let's, God forbid, not look at the root of the problem which is mentally unstable individuals![/background]

I admit it was sarcastic and may have not been easily understood by you but I think the main problem here is not guns (guns can't do sh*t on their own), its the people, especially the mentally unstable ones. The mother of this guy knew he had problems, yet she protected him. There's a whole can of worms there.

As for my comments on cotton candy being "sophomoric": That is sophomoric yet another poster saying, "Yeah he was mentally unstable but should we really blame that?! Or should we take away the guns?" I am not as polite as you so I am just going to say that idiotic statement and the like right there is the crux of the problem. People in our post modernistic BS ridden society only want to fix symptoms and not the root of the problem.

The root of the problem is that the guy needed help and never got any (at least from the stories that are coming out). The mother knew the guy was off somehow but didn't do anything. There is a stigma in the US for having children or spouses or whatnot who are mentally unstable. People feel ashamed of admitting that someone they love have a problem. People are offended if someone points it out. THAT is the problem, not the damn gun. People should be educated about mental illnesses but hey, when have the governments ever liked educated people?

The stigma of mental illness/dysfunction is worldwide, but you ar 100% correct, and no one, least of all the people on the frontline, want to take responsibility for this problem. Basically mental illness is in the too hard basket.

I know people here are banging on about gun control, but the real issue must be the number of people in our communities who suffer with mental illness, not to mention the grossly inadequate recources in terms of money, areas of specialisation (medical and community), time and feasible diagnosis of such illnesses.

Sadly until sociey is dragged kicking and screaming and is finally brought to 'fess up' that all is not right in some of our heads, this type of mass killing will continue.

 

[nicoenarg]

This is a very moving and intelligent piece by a mother of a child who's mentally ill:

http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com.ar/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html?m=1