No plan B, no easy choices

[garryl]

The Ks were totally corrupt, stole millons upon millons of dollars from "el pueblo" and now Cristina is asking for a second chance. Equally incredible.

Too bad for the people. From his heart, Marci sincerely does not give a damn about the lower income people. And K is bad for the country.

 

[garryl]

I believe market forces will force a new FF government to act very similarly to Macri's. Impossible to return to highly subsidized utilities, transport, etc and fund all the government programs they criticize Macri for cutting. After some initial symbolic announcements in December reality will hit and they will turn to pressuring private businesses to raise salaries/lower prices for consumers/not lay off anyone etc and just kinda stumble around and be in survival mode. I don't think the people currently suffering economically are going to have too much patience for a new government placing all the blame constantly on Macri. If Argentina couldn't grow during a global economic boom in recent years I hardly imagine it happening with a slowing global economy. I've been wrong before but it's my two cents.

The global economy will be be like sh*t in next few years. Not great for Argentina. If Argentina can crash like what it did in 2001, then they can start again.

 

[garryl]

I say Macri got us into this mess, make him get us out. Since no one is going to be able to do much, why not Macri, at least we'd have someone honest and with democratic values in power.

Too bad, many do not like him and do not trust him.

 

[perry]

Too bad, many do not like him and do not trust him.

He has destroyed the hopes of most argentinians and this country will not recover for a long time .

 

[milanesas]

He has destroyed the hopes of most argentinians and this country will not recover for a long time .

I'm quite surprised you and the previous commenter are so negative against Macri. I totally agree things haven't gone he planned, but I legitimately think his thinking was it's better to teach people to fish than give them fish and I would agree with that theory even if it's unpleasant short term...I'm not some sort of total free market Republican type person in the least bit, but having lived in the USA during the 2008 financial crisis and also long term in the Netherlands where people deal with personal economic difficulties by having to make tough decisions and tradeoffs, saving, working harder and being careful with resources I think long term it leads to a stronger economy and society that takes more personal responsibility. A perfect example I think is how wasteful most Argentines are with water/gas/electricity in their homes (rarely considering investing in more efficient furnaces, washing machines, insulation, sealing windows and doors, heating and cooling at full blast) and than being outraged that utility prices are expensive. These services are super expensive in most of the USA and Europe for example and make you think twice about turning on the AC. I realize I live in luxury in BA, but I at least like that the Macri government is semi serious and honest, during the last years of CFK they just turned to blatant lying and blaming anyone but themselves for the pandoras box of problems they opened with their policies.

 

[perry]

I'm quite surprised you and the previous commenter are so negative against Macri. I totally agree things haven't gone he planned, but I legitimately think his thinking was it's better to teach people to fish than give them fish and I would agree with that theory even if it's unpleasant short term...I'm not some sort of total free market Republican type person in the least bit, but having lived in the USA during the 2008 financial crisis and also long term in the Netherlands where people deal with personal economic difficulties by having to make tough decisions and tradeoffs, saving, working harder and being careful with resources I think long term it leads to a stronger economy and society that takes more personal responsibility. A perfect example I think is how wasteful most Argentines are with water/gas/electricity in their homes (rarely considering investing in more efficient furnaces, washing machines, insulation, sealing windows and doors, heating and cooling at full blast) and than being outraged that utility prices are expensive. These services are super expensive in most of the USA and Europe for example and make you think twice about turning on the AC. I realize I live in luxury in BA, but I at least like that the Macri government is semi serious and honest, during the last years of CFK they just turned to blatant lying and blaming anyone but themselves for the pandoras box of problems they opened with their policies.

I have lived in Europe, Australia , and have visted the USA and Canada and Argentinian people compared to other societies are much less wasteful and materialistic . Of course if a commodity was very cheap ie . electricity you will use this more . I would hardly call this wasteful as everyone wants to have a comfortable life with heating or cool air . The summers can be very hot here and without cooling it can be very difficult . You mention that they should invest in more up to date furnaces , washing machines etc . Have you ever thought that they could not afford to ?

People here earn very little money and there is no credit schemes that offer appliances for 12 months interest free like in the west . When one lives in a bubble it is difficult to see how 95% of people live .Even in Recoleta a great majority of people are asset rich and cash poor living on past glories .

I was just in Australia for two months and this society while very wealthy is much more wasteful than Argentinian for the simple reason that they can afford to be . Buying a new car every two to five years, new clothing every season, new furniture every few years , updating the kitchens and bathrooms every 5 to 10 years . Here in Buenos Aires most properties have not seen an update for over 30 years . While beautiful in their features their bathrooms and kitchens are very dated .

Here people are very innovative and do with the little they have . They make sure that every item lasts as long as possible meaning that they are much less wasteful than most countries in the west .

 

[milanesas]

I have lived in Europe, Australia , and have visted the USA and Canada and Argentinian people compared to other societies are much less wasteful and materialistic . Of course if a commodity was very cheap ie . electricity you will use this more . I would hardly call this wasteful as everyone wants to have a comfortable life with heating or cool air . The summers can be very hot here and without cooling it can be very difficult . You mention that they should invest in more up to date furnaces , washing machines etc . Have you ever thought that they could not afford to ? People here earn very little money and there is no credit schemes that offer appliances for 12 months interest free like in the west . When one lives in a bubble it is difficult to see how 95% of people live .Even in Recoleta a great majority of people are asset rich and cash poor living in past glories .

I was just in Australia for two months and this society while very wealthy is much more wasteful than Argentinian for the simple reason that they can afford to be . Buying a new car every two years, new clothing every season, new furniture every few years , updating the kitchens and bathrooms every 5 to 10 years . Here in Buenos Aires most properties have not seen an update for over 30 years . While beautiful in their features their bathrooms and kitchens are very dated .

Here people are very innovative and do with the little they have . They make sure that every item lasts as long as possible meaning that they are much less wasteful than most countries in the west .

I totally agree that upgrading all home appliances and renovating a home is out of reach of a lot of people, but say, sealing windows and doors, wearing an extra layer of clothing inside during the winter, not watering the sidewalks as a method of cleaning, not cooling homes as much as one might like require basically zero investment...People save for years and years to purchase a home, go on a family vacation, have a child or pay for education in the USA and often go into these decisions knowing they will have to make tradeoffs long term to have the opportunity. Here most of the time I think people find it outrageous they can't have everything they want now and have a warped vision of other countries as if people just live comfortably and get all their desires and so have these expectations of their country too.

In response to your comment that people are less materialistic in Argentina I completely disagree, and in all socioeconomic classes not just wealthy Recoleta habitants. I mean sure people living in poverty in the villas aren't buying new cars regularly, but are homeless people in the USA or Europe buying new cars regularly? No, because no one gives them credit either. Aren't people in wealthy areas of Argentina buying new cars all the time? Yes, because in any country there are richer and poorer people, it's never going to just be a uniform availability of goods, everyone has to live within their reality and work to get more if it's their desire. It's super common for middle class Argentines to go to Florida yearly and buy suitcases full of unnecessary electronics, toys, clothing, Disneyworld and max out their credit cards on non-basic items. I interact with and work with people living outside "the bubble" as you say, with all types of economic backgrounds, from the interior, small towns, less frequented neighborhoods etc. I don't think I'm going to convince you but my conclusion is whatever government is in power is going to have to teach people to live within current day reality of limited resources and not within nostalgia for the Argentina of 100 years ago...

 

[perry]

I totally agree that upgrading all home appliances and renovating a home is out of reach of a lot of people, but say, sealing windows and doors, wearing an extra layer of clothing inside during the winter, not watering the sidewalks as a method of cleaning, not cooling homes as much as one might like require basically zero investment...People save for years and years to purchase a home, go on a family vacation, have a child or pay for education in the USA and often go into these decisions knowing they will have to make tradeoffs long term to have the opportunity. Here most of the time I think people find it outrageous they can't have everything they want now and have a warped vision of other countries as if people just live comfortably and get all their desires and so have these expectations of their country too.

In response to your comment that people are less materialistic in Argentina I completely disagree, and in all socioeconomic classes not just wealthy Recoleta habitants. I mean sure people living in poverty in the villas aren't buying new cars regularly, but are homeless people in the USA or Europe buying new cars regularly? No, because no one gives them credit either. Aren't people in wealthy areas of Argentina buying new cars all the time? Yes, because in any country there are richer and poorer people, it's never going to just be a uniform availability of goods, everyone has to live within their reality and work to get more if it's their desire. It's super common for middle class Argentines to go to Florida yearly and buy suitcases full of unnecessary electronics, toys, clothing, Disneyworld and max out their credit cards on non-basic items. I interact with and work with people living outside "the bubble" as you say, with all types of economic backgrounds, from the interior, small towns, less frequented neighborhoods etc. I don't think I'm going to convince you but my conclusion is whatever government is in power is going to have to teach people to live within current day reality of limited resources and not within nostalgia for the Argentina of 100 years ago...

Why are you blaming the argentinian people for the economic mess of this country? .
Have you ever thought about a conspiration to keep a small group of rich people in power with international support that create the economic crises so prevalent in Argentina in the last 50 years .

In regards to Miami Trips this is maybe 10% of the population and they do this for the simple reason that it is much cheaper to buy electronics and clothing there . They buy for a few years on their trips and also bring back for friends and relatives . Why does Argentina have the highest taxes in the world on electronics ? i am sure if the prices were reasonable people would never buy in Miami and invest in local business helping the economy .

Under the current government wages the minimum wage has been slashed in us dollar terms by 50% . This is brutal and would not ever be acceptable in Italy, France, Sweden or Australia . The cost of living in Argentina is sky high also with prices of supermarket goods more expensive than Europe . I am surprised how accepting that Argentinians are at times .

 

[milanesas]

And on a side note, you are totally right, most apartments and homes I've visited in Argentina are a bit dated and haven't been updated in years and I don't think it's because people are just happy with what they have and don't want to renovate because they aren't materialistic, I think it's just that the country has been in a long term bad economic situation. The funny thing is that Peronismo party politicians have been in power most of the time those homes/apartments haven't been getting renovated, it's not like 3 years ago people just stopped renovating because Macri appeared.

 

[perry]

And on a side note, you are totally right, most apartments and homes I've visited in Argentina are a bit dated and haven't been updated in years and I don't think it's because people are just happy with what they have and don't want to renovate because they aren't materialistic, I think it's just that the country has been in a long term bad economic situation. The funny thing is that Peronismo party politicians have been in power most of the time those homes/apartments haven't been getting renovated, it's not like 3 years ago people just stopped renovating because Macri appeared.

In actual fact under the last government of the Kirchners whole neighbourhoods were transformed from nothing . Think about Puerto Madero and Palermo Soho many people brought run down properties there and renovated them into beautiful spaces . This was possible due to a hope for a better future and a cheap peso .

I suggest that you go to Palermo Soho and Palermo Hollywood today and see how its looking now . 30% of shops closed, a handful of clients here and there and a dull atmosphere . I lived in the heart of Palermo Soho from 2004 to 2012 and it was a hopeful vibrant neighbourhood with new shops opening by the day . Now with 4 years of Macrismo the change is stark .