Outcry as Milei rewrites Argentina’s history

[TWB103]

Whatever the true number of The Disappeared is what is for sure is that there are those that will try to minimize or justify the dissappearances and those who will use it to victimize themselves for political and economical grift.

 

[FrankPintor]

It goes like this:

Frank likes to provoke discussion on his pet topics by launching highly contestable claims in a way that suggests there is not, in fact, any possible contest of ideas. People tend to bite. He’s usually heard all the counter arguments before and is poised ready with his counter counter arguments. It’s often quite entertaining, if a little transparent.

It used to be Larreta and what he did to the teachers. Then it was Larreta and the car removal racket. Then it was just Larreta, Larreta, Larreta. Until Larreta, much to the relief of many (myself included) passed (predictably) away at the hands of Bullrich. Now it’s the turn of Milei, the toddler president.

I occasionally rise to the bait Frank puts out there by putting in a reply to whatever outlandish highly contestable argument he has just presented as inarguable and do so with a first sentence that reads:“It’s true”. Humoring him as if I am about to agree with him, but then going on to present the obvious counterpoints to his argument (which, to be fair, he usually knows are coming and is ready for). Or else, (more rarely) I humour myself, as I did during one of his Larreta rants, by following my “It’s true” introduction with a half hour video I found of some conspiracy nut claiming that Larreta and Maria Eugenia Vidal plotted with Osama Bin Laden in the late 90s here in Buenos Aires the attack on the World Trade Center. (He never thanked me for this by the way. It must have been music to his ears and eyes.)

Although, tonight, he does appear in his latest toddler president missive (this thread) to conclude that the 30,000 is real because it’s a logical extrapolation from the 1978 Chilean intelligence report, in a separate thread (where I chided him about his sudden definitive resolution of the matter based a single piece of information), he backs away from that somewhat but at the same time invites me to provide another way of looking at the evidence that is better than his mathematical extrapolation. Rather than continuing to derail the other thread, I chose to do so back here on this thread. And introducing the post with my customary, sarcastic, “It’s true”. Not because I believe 30,000 or any other number is true, but because I enjoy pretending for a second to agree with Frank before either not doing so, or instead posting information even more outlandish than anything he has been able to unearth to bolster his world view. I would love to know what our AI alter egos on the other website do with all this.

(I have no idea what is true in this case. There are reasonable grounds for believing any number between 9,000 and 30,000.)

Alby, I think you're going off the rails here. I do post on topics of interest or concern to me here, perhaps you should do the same?

 

[Reply Guy]

It goes like this:

Frank likes to provoke discussion on his pet topics by launching highly contestable claims in a way that suggests there is not, in fact, any possible contest of ideas. People tend to bite. He’s usually heard all the counter arguments before and is poised ready with his counter counter arguments. It’s often quite entertaining, if a little transparent.

It used to be Larreta and what he did to the teachers. Then it was Larreta and the car removal racket. Then it was just Larreta, Larreta, Larreta. Until Larreta, much to the relief of many (myself included) passed (predictably) away at the hands of Bullrich. Now it’s the turn of Milei, the toddler president.

I occasionally rise to the bait Frank puts out there by putting in a reply to whatever outlandish highly contestable argument he has just presented as inarguable and do so with a first sentence that reads:“It’s true”. Humoring him as if I am about to agree with him, but then going on to present the obvious counterpoints to his argument (which, to be fair, he usually knows are coming and is ready for). Or else, (more rarely) I humour myself, as I did during one of his Larreta rants, by following my “It’s true” introduction with a half hour video I found of some conspiracy nut claiming that Larreta and Maria Eugenia Vidal plotted with Osama Bin Laden in the late 90s here in Buenos Aires the attack on the World Trade Center. (He never thanked me for this by the way. It must have been music to his ears and eyes.)

Although, tonight, he does appear in his latest toddler president missive (this thread) to conclude that the 30,000 is real because it’s a logical extrapolation from the 1978 Chilean intelligence report, in a separate thread (where I chided him about his sudden definitive resolution of the matter based a single piece of information), he backs away from that somewhat but at the same time invites me to provide another way of looking at the evidence that is better than his mathematical extrapolation. Rather than continuing to derail the other thread, I chose to do so back here on this thread. And introducing the post with my customary, sarcastic, “It’s true”. Not because I believe 30,000 or any other number is true, but because I enjoy pretending for a second to agree with Frank before either not doing so, or instead posting information even more outlandish than anything he has been able to unearth to bolster his world view. I would love to know what our AI alter egos on the other website do with all this.

(I have no idea what is true in this case. There are reasonable grounds for believing any number between 9,000 and 30,000.)

Frank...

3 years into Alberto's term: La Niña, drought, inherited debt, Ukraine, soy prices, etc, etc.

3 months into Milei's term: Blames him for everything wrong in Argentina.

Lmaoooo

 

[FrankPintor]

Frank...

3 years into Alberto's term: La Niña, drought, inherited debt, Ukraine, soy prices, etc, etc.

3 months into Milei's term: Blames him for everything wrong in Argentina.

Lmaoooo

Oh really, don't be silly.

You want to dispute any of this: La Niña, drought, inherited debt, Ukraine, soy prices, etc, etc, like none of that happened? Be my guest

3 months into Milei's term we have the highest inflation in the last 10 years? But that's good, right?

 

[carride]

Milei government casts doubt over dictatorship crimes

Milei administration echoes vice-president's line, demanding justice for "the victims of terrorism" during military dictatorship era and questioning 30,000 disappeared estimate from human rights groups.

batimes.com.ar

 

[Reply Guy]

Milei government casts doubt over dictatorship crimes

Milei administration echoes vice-president's line, demanding justice for "the victims of terrorism" during military dictatorship era and questioning 30,000 disappeared estimate from human rights groups.

batimes.com.ar

I don't get Villaruel's obsession with this.

If the junta disappeared 8k instead of 30k, it doesn't make it any better.

If she's upset that left wing terrorists or their victims weren't properly recognized she can do that too without arguing about if it was 30,000 or not.

It seems unproductive, especially when the current moment demands 100% focus on the economy, not fighting battles from 40 years ago.

 

[antipodean]

I don't get Villaruel's obsession with this.

If the junta disappeared 8k instead of 30k, it doesn't make it any better.

If she's upset that left wing terrorists or their victims weren't properly recognized she can do that too without arguing about if it was 30,000 or not.

It seems unproductive, especially when the current moment demands 100% focus on the economy, not fighting battles from 40 years ago.

The issue in Argentina society is a two-way street, that for decades due to politics has been portrayed as a one-way street with a very narrow officially tolerated commentary.

Most attempts to get justice and state recognition for crimes committed by terrorist organizations, and by the Peronist government and its state aparatos in the years leading up to the military dictatorship have been swept under the carpet with only part of the story being broadcast by successive governments with political sympathies / idealogical inclinations toward said terrorist organizations and Peronist government.

If you visit the ESMA museum you will see home made weapons and manuals on how to kill and torture people used by the terrorist groups whose members (among others) were also interned, tortured and killed there by the state using a different play book and weapons. The most poignant difference I noticed when seeing this was that the display of the “terrorist” weapons/ guides was under the simple banner of “resistance to authority” (with nothing to note that aggressive acts of violence from their side also came before the whole resistance part…)

IMO the whole thing about the number is tit-for-tat designed to give Argentines on the other side some crude satisfaction. As said before the exact number will never be known and if it was, does it make what happened any better or any worse? However if the official number - whatever that is - of victims should also include victims of terrorism and the pre-dictatorship Peronist government’s death squads is something that matters to many Argentines. Time to broaden the umbrella and go beyond “la dictadura” and condemn all forms political violence in Argentina’s history and present, which is what this government is trying to do in their own way of doing it.

 

[Reply Guy]

Thanks for giving more context on all of this. That makes sense.

By arguing over the specific numbers it gives the impression that they are trying to justify or diminish the violence.

Why can't they just say we're not going to argue about exact numbers which are unknown, what the dictatorship did was horrible, but let's also acknowledge the state violence carried out by Isabelita and the left wing terrorist groups?

I think Villaruel was a bad choice as VP.

Milei needs high performing winners by his side, who are concerned with fixing the economy and security, not some ideologue obsessed with fighting battles from 40 years ago.

 

[antipodean]

Thanks for giving more context on all of this. That makes sense.

By arguing over the specific numbers it gives the impression that they are trying to justify or diminish the violence.

Why can't they just say we're not going to argue about exact numbers which are unknown, what the dictatorship did was horrible, but let's also acknowledge the state violence carried out by Isabelita and the left wing terrorist groups?

I think Villaruel was a bad choice as VP.

Milei needs high performing winners by his side, who are concerned with fixing the economy and security, not some ideologue obsessed with fighting battles from 40 years ago.

They and their speech are just as antagonistic as other political leaders like Cristina, Maximo, Axel or Alberto. It gets people fired up and wins some votes from the emotionally feble voters that exist in any society.

 

[Ruta Otto]

The issue in Argentina society is a two-way street, that for decades due to politics has been portrayed as a one-way street with a very narrow officially tolerated commentary.

Most attempts to get justice and state recognition for crimes committed by terrorist organizations, and by the Peronist government and its state aparatos in the years leading up to the military dictatorship have been swept under the carpet with only part of the story being broadcast by successive governments with political sympathies / idealogical inclinations toward said terrorist organizations and Peronist government.

If you visit the ESMA museum you will see home made weapons and manuals on how to kill and torture people used by the terrorist groups whose members (among others) were also interned, tortured and killed there by the state using a different play book and weapons. The most poignant difference I noticed when seeing this was that the display of the “terrorist” weapons/ guides was under the simple banner of “resistance to authority” (with nothing to note that aggressive acts of violence from their side also came before the whole resistance part…)

IMO the whole thing about the number is tit-for-tat designed to give Argentines on the other side some crude satisfaction. As said before the exact number will never be known and if it was, does it make what happened any better or any worse? However if the official number - whatever that is - of victims should also include victims of terrorism and the pre-dictatorship Peronist government’s death squads is something that matters to many Argentines. Time to broaden the umbrella and go beyond “la dictadura” and condemn all forms political violence in Argentina’s history and present, which is what this government is trying to do in their own way of doing it.

The government isn't trying to present a balance, fair portrayal of the events on the 1970s-1980s. They are simply spitting in the eye of the opposition.