OverStaying in argentina due to COVID-19

[elhombresinnombre]

The issue of what happens to a tourist whose visa is no longer able to be extended but the individual has no way to leave the country because the border is closed, is one that we need to be thinking about. People who have a residency application in process might also find themselves in a difficult position is their application is, at some point in the coming months, rejected (and thus the individual has to leave the country). What do Migraciones do with this individual? I doubt Migraciones would solve the problem by moving those people onto another form of visa. So what would Migraciones do? Detain the individual, until such time as the borders open, or flights out of the country become available?

In my opinion, as someone who arrived on a 90 day tourist stamp and will inevitably still be here when it expires, I think @Bajo_cero2 has explained the situation concisely, precisely and well. Until the government does something different, that's all I need to know.

 

[Alby]

I guess it's all about you then. Others may not be so unconcerned. Thanks for trying to shut down a potentially quite serious matter that could affect a number of individuals.

(It is clear there is nothing to be done at the moment. But it is important to think ahead when one is in a country where one's legal status may come into question and where they may be no easy way to leave.)

 

[elhombresinnombre]

I guess it's all about you then. Others may not be so unconcerned. Thanks for trying to shut down a potentially quite serious matter that could affect a number of individuals.

(It is clear there is nothing to be done at the moment. But it is important to think ahead when one is in a country where one's legal status may come into question and where they may be no easy way to leave.)

To think ahead you need new data Which You Have Not Got. @Bajo_cero2 has explained how things stand in the here and now, anything else is pointless speculation until new data comes along. Being concerned, anxious even, doesn't magic new information out of nowhere.

 

[Alby]

Your position is clear. You are comfortable. You are entitled to your point of view. But then again, if you are on a tourist visa your exposure is probably less than other people, because in the worst case scenario you could simply play the tried and true game of laying low and then just paying a fine at the airport once you eventually find a flight or boat out.

For other people it is not so simple: they have an ongoing relationship with Migraciones and formal processes in train which may or may not lead to residency being granted during the coming months when flights out of the country either home or to elsewhere might not be available.

Some may agree with you that this issue needs no further discussion at this point. Some may agree with me that we ought to continue to share opinions about what may happen to people who are on Migraciones radar (e.g., Migraciones have our address) and suddenly have exhausted their legal avenues to stay, but equally, have no avenue to leave.

Contributions will be just opinions, of course. Nobody can be certain, since we are in uncharted waters. But many stranger and less directly relevant topics exist on this forum and debate goes on endless without any suggesting that the matter is suddenly resolved for now and there no need to continue exchanging views.

The topic of this thread "Overstaying in Argentina due to COVID-19" is going to have a long life, because the matter will become increasingly relevant for increasing numbers of people the longer the situation drags on.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

The issue of what happens to a tourist whose visa is no longer able to be extended but the individual has no way to leave the country because the border is closed, is one that we need to be thinking about. People who have a residency application in process might also find themselves in a difficult position is their application is, at some point in the coming months, rejected (and thus the individual has to leave the country). What do Migraciones do with this individual? I doubt Migraciones would solve the problem by moving those people onto another form of visa. So what would Migraciones do? Detain the individual, until such time as the borders open, or flights out of the country become available?

No. I have a lot of clients with arrest order for deportation. I tried to litigate it during the quarantine, the Court said there is no risk of being arrested.
So, not having arrest order for deportation, there is not going to be a judge to enact it.
Neither an immigration lawyer who deals with your case. They cannot work remotely. They just receive mails to calm down anxiety of people. They cannot open the immigration data base home.
And again, time is suspended. He or she who has 90 days in the stamp, that stamp is frozen since administrative procedures are suspended. Deadlines are suspended.

immigration is working in people who arrived recentrly, tracking them to test them for Covid-19.

 

[Jeremias]

For one second I though the lawyer was me...FYI when there is a suspension of administrative activity, the times do not run, that is, it is as if not a single day had passed.

I value your answer, and I think you are right, the times have just been frozen. For example, the 90-day tourist-visa period does not run anymore, so to speak. I think you're right on this.

Now, a detail, as I also studied Law in my youth. I would think that an administrative suspension does not cancel a decree enforced prior to the freeze. It might suspend its implementation, but I think it does not cancel it. But it's a technicality.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

I value your answer, and I think you are right, the times have just been frozen. For example, the 90-day tourist-visa period does not run anymore, so to speak. I think you're right on this.

Now, a detail, as I also studied Law in my youth. I would think that an administrative suspension does not cancel a decree enforced prior to the freeze. It might suspend its implementation, but I think it does not cancel it. But it's a technicality.

Here you are technically wrong. A DNU is alike a law for emergencies. Decrees are abolished by Laws and DNU. An extension on the staying is an administrative act. Alike a decree but only for one person while decrees and laws are for everybody. Administrative acts can be modified by new facts by law.
If you want to go deeper, it is a gratious donation of time and follows the rules of roman law of trustee donations because the NC follows the manumissio per epistolem procedure and this is why they can be always modified without stare decisis or Juged thing because there is no litigation.
Because it follows the rules of disposition of property: you [the State] do whatever you want [with some modern limits we call warranties that romans called statuliber and favore libertatis].
So, the extension is valid? Yes. But if by the time quarantine was declared it passed by 2 days, then you have another 88 for the time the suspension of dead lines is lifted.

 

[Alby]

Eventually the suspension of dealines will be lifted, and the clock will start ticking again, so the question still remains: if a person has done everything he or she can do to remain legally in the country and failed (e.g., had a residency application rejected) and would freely leave the country but can't (because borders remain closed and there are no flights out of the country) would Migraciones seek to deport that person and first detain that person until a flight became available?

 

[Jeremias]

Eventually the suspension of dealines will be lifted, and the clock will start ticking again, so the question still remains: if a person has done everything he or she can do to remain legally in the country and failed (e.g., had a residency application rejected) and would freely leave the country but can't (because borders remain closed and there are no flights out of the country) would Migraciones seek to deport that person and first detain that person until a flight became available?

Somehow I doubt that Migraciones would go after you, or pay you the flight ticket back to your home country. Dismiss you, or at a maximum, catch and release you, is what they would do. Don't count on a free airline ride home. You're here until borders are open and you have your own money to pay a plane ticket.

 

[ventanilla]

I am in contact with immigration NGOs as well as other immigration lawyers and NONE OF THEM have heard anything about this 'visa suspension'. You can check, Google it, look at the websites of respected organisations that advise migrants in Argentina. They list the DNU, they do NOT have anything about 'visa days being frozen'. I also E-MAILED MIGRACIONES, they told me there is no such thing and the only measure at this time is the 30 day extension DNU. This is corroborated by their website, which ONLY features a link to the DNU, nothing about 'days being suspended.'

See yourself: https://www.argentina.gob.ar/interior/migraciones/covid-19-radicaciones

Bajo, you can't simply coast by on being a lawyer without even providing links to the laws in question or anything that corroborates your interpretation. Our future is at stake, we can't afford to just take your word for it, that's not good enough, especially when it's contradicted by absolutely everyone else.

No. I have a lot of clients with arrest order for deportation. I tried to litigate it during the quarantine, the Court said there is no risk of being arrested.
So, not having arrest order for deportation, there is not going to be a judge to enact it.

This does not help us. Those of us with expiring visas are not worried about deportation, we are worried that once we finally leave we will get an overstay marked down on our record, making it more likely that we will be denied entry in the future and less likely that we will be granted residency visas if we one day apply. Suspending administrative procedures is irrelevant to this.

It is incredibly annoying that a native Spanish speaking lawyer simply ignores our confusion over the wording in the DNU to say "Administrative procedures are suspended" over and over again. You could at least have answered our simple question about who gets those 30 extra days - the answer which for some of us may be the difference between an overstay or not - and THEN moved on to talking about what you think is better, but no, our concerns are ignored. Is this how you operate with your clients too?