Paying incompetent losers is just wrong!

[crakenflux]

Oh ok, rereading the posts, let me rephrase.. how illegal is it (hiring en negro)?

 

[crakenflux]

BTW, I will be arriving in BA in early August.. fully bilingual, degreed.. wanting to integrate into BA life. Anyone hiring for part time work, telecommuting or in situ.. please let me know. Particulars furnished upon request...

 

[citygirl]

Fifs2.. Can you tell me if you hired this person blanco o negro? Are there laws against a black labor market in the books? Are they enforced? If so, are they enforced with prejudice against foreign companies doing business in BA?

I am not Fifs so I can't answer that but yes, there are laws against hiring en negro. Are they enforced - well, if you have problems, you (employer) can be in an world of hurt and again, once you hire an employee en negro, you have no protection. And while I certainly can't say that they are enforced with prejudice, as a foreign company, it's never a good idea to break the rules.

 

[fifs2]

Nope, not just you. But the key is hiring good employees, giving them good working conditions and then cutting your losses early (if you can). The good thing is you can do a 6 month trial period. While you will still have to pay out, at least its not outrageous if it doesn't work out.

Edited to say - it's also important to do everything in blanco to protect yourself as an employer. I know the taxes are high but if you go en negro, the employee has a lot more power to screw you.

I've had amazing luck hiring young people in their early/mid 20s who are going to night school to finish up their degree and need a good day time job. They work hard, they don't cause problems and I can train them the way I want them. My team here gets consistent rave reviews from the client.

I will say (and this is horrible) that the 2 more mature employees I hired didn't work out - they wanted to do things their way, weren't flexible and wound up quitting in a really unprofessional manner. Both left before their 6 month probation period.

It took me a while to find a good team but knock on wood - it's been going great for the last 6 months.

I also, as an employer, make it a point to take care of my employees. I don't ask them to work OT unless it's something really important, they get to take study days, I give them quarterly incentives, I pay well above the norm, provide health insurance, take them out to lunch 1x a month, etc.

I want them to feel like they are an important part of the team and to take ownership and pride in their work. I'm sure most of them will move on after they finish their degrees but that's perfectly okay with me and I will give them glowing references. And while they are with my company, I want them to work hard but also enjoy the rewards of their work.

All agreed Citigirl - healthcare, gym membership, viaticos, team lunches, theme parties and a company poker night once a year..we have it all ...we even have a masseur who comes 3 full days a week. I am beginning to see we may even have been a little over-indulgent..and created the monsters ourselves! I have learned to be more cynical until somone has proven themselves and as you say 6 months is about the right amount of time to feel that. Overall I espouse to the Lion King Philosophy ..life is a circle and if any person who is genuinely well salaried and treated can have a bad attitude here, they will have a bad attitude anywhere so life will teach them the necessary lessons that I cannot. Thanks for all the supportive posts and reminders that Argentina has a wealth of wonderful talent and people and there are bad eggs everywhere...you see how liberated and magnanimous I am now that the bag eggs have been expunged...

 

[fifs2]

Fifs2.. Can you tell me if you hired this person blanco o negro? Are there laws against a black labor market in the books? Are they enforced? If so, are they enforced with prejudice against foreign companies doing business in BA?

Crakenflux,
I´d be too scared to hire anyone in negro as Afip are prone to flash raids on companies...we know one SW company in our building that suffered that and even though all was in order they requested a 20k coima to go away and not cause trouble! I also don´t see how any employer can motivate their staff to be ethical professionals if the employer cant even recognise the basic tax laws of the country...call me an idealist but paying under the table in brown envelopes is so ugly!

 

[fifs2]

Well, if you have a bad employed you can fire him without paying him anything. But, of course, he must be en blanco. There is a procedure for that.
If you are paying him under the table, this is illegal and that´s why you have to pay so much. The indemnización is doubble.
Lawyers here aren´t as expensive as in the US, so the best is to have legal advice in advance instead of doing everything as you are used to do in you country and call the lawyer when your mistake is impossible to solve. Lawyers are lawyers not magicians.
On the other hand, you are probably paying a lot less than in the US or Europe, so, to do everything according to law will be less expensive. The philosophy behing the argentinian law is to force you to have all your employed en blanco, legals.

This is absolutely incorrect and in fact the opposite way round. You cannot fire incompetent workers en blanco as 99.9% of all labor law cases are won by the employee, even if you have all your ducks in a row re warnings suspensions, and a cabinet full of documents showing them to be rude and unwilling to work. ...if they are in negro of course you can fire them as they have no pay receipts. We have a full time lawyer in our company so be assured we know all of the ins and outs of the Argentina law and it is not designed to encourage legal employment let me assure you.

 

[bluesman]

compared to the u s its a sad joke...that said ...the argies love it this way...permanent victims...struggling for italian grace and elegance..simpering significance...we all have our limitations and stigma after being jettisoned from the wet wonderful orb..there are so many wonderful intelligent warm people in argentina who feel they must project an image of being elite and above the fray...the chinese are running out of everything...argentina is a big place with few people...i doubt if argentines will aspire to living with farm animals in the house proper..and drowning female newborns when the chinese communists come knocking....fairness and kindness are difficult delicate concepts and someone must work and create capital generating devices so socialist democracies can wobble along in dreamland...

 

[fred mertz]

At the turn of the century, a friend of mine was in management at the Arts (Marriott) Hotel in Barcelona. In order for them to fire an employee, I'm quite sure that the hotel had to pay her a years' salary.
Have any of you heard about the "rubber room" that is run by the New York City Board of Education? I believe the rule is that after a teacher has taught in the system for 10 years, it's vertually impossible for them to be fired. Teachers who should have been fired for for reasons such as sexual harrassment, physically abusing a student etc. etc. cannot be fired. So they spend their "work" days at some sort of lounge where they can do anything that they want to do, such as working on their laptops, reading, sleeping or whatever. Of course, they collect their full salaries. They can be there for years. I bet many of them send thank you letters everyday to their union.

 

[Georginar]

Well, actually, it makes me sick too! and I am a "municipal" here.

I only have 2 years experience, and I already know that I NEVER want to be like 95% of my co workers.
For instance, I have one co worker that I met on January, but he has been "working" with me since before I even got in (but I never actually saw him until January). And when I came to work one day, and asked who he was, the answer was "that is Pablito" obviously I asked "and who's Pablito" to the person that pointed him out to me, and she looked at me, in a bad way, and said lowering her voice... hes a co worker... don't be a bad co worker... he has issues. And I had to act as if he's been working with me since the day I started there...
Our bosses CANT say anything to someone that is not efficient or doesn't go to work, because if they do, the employee goes right to the union and some "delegado" will come to the floor, have a little talk to the boss and threat them somehow on not to do it anymore, and tell them they don't have moral values by complaining about someone that has personal problems and cant meet the expectations, and nobody there wants to jeopardize nobody's job... "right?". So nothing happens to the "ñoqui" or the incompetent or who ever, and our boss gets a lecture from the union....so in one floor there are 12 employees during the morning shift, but only 8 o to work, and only 5 go to work every day.
I have a co worker, that I discovered the other day how she manages to stay home some days and make it look as if she is not doing anything wrong.
When we ask for vacation (e have 14 days), you have to fill out a paper where you cross the type of "licencia" you're asking for, exam, vacation, maternity etc. that paper goes to "personal" and they add it to your work papers.
Every day you have to sign a sheet of paper so they know you went to work, so if you missed a day obviously your signature wont be there, so what she does is this: she tells my boss that she has to take her kid to the doctor, or somewhere, so she says she'll ask for 1 day vacation, and make it easy for everyone, so she fills the little paper asking for the vacation, she hands it to our boss for him to authorize her by signing. After that she is supposed to take the paper to personal.. but no... she keeps it, takes the day off, and when she is back, she goes to personal, and she knows everyone there, they let her sign the everyday sheet, as if she did come to work, and never hands in the little paper...that way, when they calculate her vacation, since she never gave the paper, they still tell her she has 14 days. So our boss, who has many many employees under him, doesn't keep track of how many days everyone took, and if he wants to remember... he remembers he did sign a vacation day... so it looks like she was all legal about the way she was absent from work, but when she takes vacation... she takes the full 14 days... . I HATE THAT!!! when I need a day, Im the only one working overtime to get the hours to take 1 day off and dont loose vacation days... when I get sick, I call the doctor to my home and take what ever prescription they gave me to my boss, I don't call in the morning and say "I don't feel right" and go shopping instead....
I well I guess I bored everyone with my experience, but when I read this, I realize that by the things some stayed it is the only place where someone will agree with me. Because for the rest o the people I know what are Argentinians, I'm like a "marciano", I... and even one co worker told me once... Well you chose the wrong place to work then.. ether you change or you're done in the municipalidad... I felt so bad I went home crying hahahah :$
Oh well, I need the money, so I have to stay, but I wont become a municipal EVER.

 

[SaraSara]

Georginar: you are the kind of person I was thinking of when I wrote that for every ten no-show teachers or nurses, there is a dedicated one carrying the whole weight of the school or hospital ward.

Kudos to you, but get out of the Municipalidad before you get stabbed to death by those ñoquis. Not only they don't work, but they hate and resent anyone who does.