Poll: Peronism And Democracy

The Effects of "Peronism" on Argentina have been...

  • Vastly positive

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Mildly positive

    Votes: 2 8.0%
  • Negligible

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Mildly negative

    Votes: 1 4.0%
  • Vastly negative

    Votes: 15 60.0%
  • "Peronism" is too broad a term to define

    Votes: 5 20.0%
  • This question is BS! Bring back Joe to set up a real poll

    Votes: 2 8.0%

  • Total voters
    25

EdRooney

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Just had a good conversation with an Argentine on this unwieldy topic, so curious to see how the peanut gallery opines. Do your worst:

Peronism: hailed by some, reviled by others, misunderstood by all. What has its net effect been on Argentina?
 
Since when are peronists conservative? Maybe we should just accept that there really isn't a parallel. Peronistas are peronistas and it's something that could only happen in Argentina.... maybe Italy, but basically only here. Otherwise we'll end up discussing this issue until everyone not involved/ not interested starts feeling the pain they felt when we had the Obamacare debate taking over every thread.
 
Since when are peronists conservative? Maybe we should just accept that there really isn't a parallel. Peronistas are peronistas and it's something that could only happen in Argentina.... maybe Italy, but basically only here. Otherwise we'll end up discussing this issue until everyone not involved/ not interested starts feeling the pain they felt when we had the Obamacare debate taking over every thread.

Stop the presses! A socialist is about to defend a right winger!

In all seriousness it's not fair to compare conservatism to peronism, I may disagree with conservatism on almost
every principal but they are competent at least and not protectionist xenophobes (all the time) or kleptocrats like
the Ks/Peronists.
 
Stop the presses! A socialist is about to defend a right winger!

In all seriousness it's not fair to compare conservatism to peronism, I may disagree with conservatism on almost
every principal but they are competent at least and not protectionist xenophobes (all the time) or kleptocrats like
the Ks/Peronists.

Even if the comparison is imperfect, there are too many parallels to ignore.
 
Stop the presses! A socialist is about to defend a right winger!

In all seriousness it's not fair to compare conservatism to peronism, I may disagree with conservatism on almost
every principal but they are competent at least and not protectionist xenophobes (all the time) or kleptocrats like
the Ks/Peronists.

Thank you my friend but I really don't consider myself a right winger.
 
I dont think you guys understand peronism. In fact, nobody does. It is soooo complex, with left and right and commies and nationalistics, and militars...

So lets talk about facts. Peronism was born in 1946 during an unconstitutional government, imposed by a coup. It was born democratically, with elections (after 16!! years of several military governments). It was deeply revolutionary: all the power to the poor, to the excluded, occupying lots of places, traditional upper class places, like cafes in Recoeta, or Mar del Plata in summer. The Recoleta people wanted another model of a country, linked with the campo, and loved paternalistic relationships with the poor. So, Peronismo=all the power to the poor, by the sindicates. That created a bureaucratic sindicalism with each leaders, that lately will be the right, united with the nationalistic militars. Lots of militars supported Peron due the huge investment in national industry, heavy industry linked to weapons, like tanks production, a huge Fabrica Militar de Aviones, with lots of german engineers brought especially from Nazi Germany to develop Argentine models. It was an authoritarian government, not a tyranny but lots of things of Mussolini, like propaganda.

This industry created lots of jobs, quality jobs to poor people, who lived in the interior, and also in BsAs. Suddenly, they had lots of new rights, like aguinaldo or vacaciones pagas (paid vacations). These people were in a few years pushed into the internal market. Those money created inflation of course, for the first time, and they started to consume, among other things, CARNE, which means, that the campo people must provide CARNE to the Argentine State instead of selling it, a lot more expensive, abroad. This is very important to understand why always the campo people want a depressed economy, with llittle to no internal demand, with people without money, excluded from consumption, etc: because the prefer selling the meat in dollars and not being forced to sell it in the internal market in pesos half priced. If they are not forced by the State, we have to import meat, which does not make sense while we produce it. A solution could be change habits, but it is very difficult.

Peronism was bombed by the Air Force months before overthrown, in 1955. An unconstitutional government, oposed to democracy, finished their government abruptly. Peron went into exile to Madrid and Peronismo was banned for 20 years (!!). Could not participate in elections for 20 years. As you read. Those who won elections "democratically" from 1958 to 1973 were totally under control of the armed forces. There were, of course, two more coups within there, to these gobiernos radicales (the party named Union Civica Radical).

The sindicates still had a lot of political power, the militars couldnt disamble what Peron constructed with the sindicates. Inflation, started with Peron due the strong demand (thousands of new people into consumption) continued these years post Peron, the economy had stop and go cycles, with inflation, growth, more inflation, devaluation, growth, inflation, devaluation.... Some militars, the not-peronists, tried to de-industrialise, and return to a country without industry, leaded by the campo. The industry at that time was strong, but the campo was the more dynamic competitive sector, the most important source of dollars. So the campo financed the industry. As I said, some militars wanted no industry, and the nationalistics wanted a strong national industry. Despite this situation, we had full employment level, "peronist" industry was still very important, gave a lot of jobs to people. What started with Peron, the denominated migration campo-ciudad, continued growing as well. BsAs in those years wasnt that concentrated and center-of-the-country as it is today.

Then, the resistance to these unconstitutional governments and democartically elected governments, the middle class antiperonistas radicales, but under control of the forces armed, started to make a sparkle in the youth. So besides of the resistance of the sindicates, the upper middle class students, sons of the antiperonistas in the 40s, became peronistas. ¡¡Psicología inversa!!. They started to support peronismo just because it was banned, prohibited, with several attempts from the people in power to erase it of Argentina. They were lefty, heavily influenced by the Cuban Revolution, French may 68, against Vietnam, Hippism, etc, etc, just picture how weird is this!! father furiously antiperonista, in his youth faught against Peron, and his son, upper middle class student, became Peronista... the context was very rebellious, youth versus the elderly, with drugs, rock and roll, it was a cultural crisis, not an economic one. The better paid workers of the country took the second and more industrialised city of the country with the help of students. The militars tried to put this situation under control, but they couldnt. For 48 hours the city was under control of this movement. Then, the militars recovered and repressed, but this gap is inexcusable to a military government. After Cordobazo, investment, especially foreign investment, declined like 75%. How does it look that some workers and students captured a city for 48 hours? and to a military government?!?!?! This also explains the lhorror of the last dictatorship... Cordobazo was like a party for the students, beatles, drugs, mini skirt... it was in some way like a game, like fun, it was a different society, without the segregation, violence and poverty we have today. It was all homogenous educated middle class...


So, to sum up, this is Peronismo. Authoritarian, propaganda, demagogic, but sadly the only sustainable project this country had, of industry, of economic growth with social inclusion, etc. It was never linked to antidemocratic or unconstitutional ways, in fact the exact opposite, their governments were prohibited, interrupted by coups, prosecuted. They won every single election up to 1999, apart from the 1983 defeat, where a moronic mistake in the campaign from their candidate wasted the election.

Consider these are facts, beyond discussion. No opinion here. You will never find something antidemocratical and Peronismo. Those are, all, on the other side.

Peronismo is a vastly majority in this country. Thats why every candidate must always show some kind of peronismo, in its ways, in its manners, in its speeches, even Macri. If not they cant govern, they cant win.
 
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