Populist Governments / Poverty / Corruption / Comeuppance

[gpop]

@Bradly
I consider my families situation middle-class and I work for pesos. The only tax cut's I've seen are immediately followed by a increase from another angle; either way, it's very noticeable. So no, nothing the K administration has done has me cheering with Camporas at a nac & pop. Any of my Argentine friends in the same situation are not fans either. This is the segment paying taxes and wondering where it's all going.

We could hope that the funds are directed to improving the situation of the nation. If there's been job programs, or small-business development to stimulate economic growth; I don't see it. I see many empty, unfinished project-homes on my way to Quilmes. I see bigger villas with even more desperate people. I hear about more frequent and each time more violent protests. I hear about government spending money on stupidities when there are real, more urgent matters to fund.

I don't suppose paying anyone $100 to paint a roof helps much when the baby diapers cost closer to $200.


PS. The few people I know who do defend the current administration do so because their fathers / grandfathers have maintained peronism as a family staple (always citing the generosity of Evita blah blah blah), while covering the holes in their sweaters because they refuse to admit that peronism didn't do shit for them in this lifetime.

 

[Pensador]

My first week in Argentina broke my heart it was a yankee wake up call. I was there on business to assist some programmers with a few things they were struggling with. I am not your ordinary man and I do not say that to brag. The poverty intrigued me so I journeyed into it for a time I lived in the worst of it wanting to understand it. The culture shock was staggering but being a single middle aged man at the time it was something I could do. At that time I could bench press over 400 LBS and my presence was intimidating because of my height and size. Again not bragging that is just how I lived. But I only had issues a few times and they were typically minor relating to drunks or petty thieves.

About 3 months before the last elections the K parties started all kinds of free stuff that brought out the lowest of the poor. I mean totally uneducated in absolute abject poverty. I am talking about tractor trailers of freebies pulling into the area. I really fail to find words for what I witnessed at this time. At the onset of it all I did not understand what is this party about why are there huge trucks here. Why are the poorest of the poor running to and fro like wild animals with bags of food and clothes. Then I went to see what was going on. Oh my God they were being manipulated to vote for Christina. It was to me one of the most horrific things I have ever witnessed in my life because I was probably the only one there that could really understand what was going on.

 

[Chet]

I've never had anyone tell me that they voted for someone because they got a choripan and a t-shirt. However, in a basic sense, this is politics. You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. How is a tax cut for the middle class any different than handing someone in a villa $100 pesos to paint his roof?

Not defending any government but there is a very real difference.
A tax cut is letting someone that earns money keep more of it, giving money to someone is handing out money you took from someone else (or simply printed which takes money from all by inflation).

 

[thorsten]

Not defending any government but there is a very real difference.
A tax cut is letting someone that earns money keep more of it, giving money to someone is handing out money you took from someone else (or simply printed which takes money from all by inflation).

I don't see a real difference here: "[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]handing out money you took from someone else" is the function of a state. All public services are working like that and I'd consider it a good thing. The crucial part is whether the redistribution makes sense, which, unfortunately, is often not the case here in my opinion. [/background]

 

[sesamosinsal]

Not defending any government but there is a very real difference.
A tax cut is letting someone that earns money keep more of it, giving money to someone is handing out money you took from someone else (or simply printed which takes money from all by inflation).

No one in a villa works? The poor do not work? The poor do not pay taxes?

 

[sesamosinsal]

@Bradly
I consider my families situation middle-class and I work for pesos. The only tax cut's I've seen are immediately followed by a increase from another angle; either way, it's very noticeable. So no, nothing the K administration has done has me cheering with Camporas at a nac & pop. Any of my Argentine friends in the same situation are not fans either. This is the segment paying taxes and wondering where it's all going.

We could hope that the funds are directed to improving the situation of the nation. If there's been job programs, or small-business development to stimulate economic growth; I don't see it. I see many empty, unfinished project-homes on my way to Quilmes. I see bigger villas with even more desperate people. I hear about more frequent and each time more violent protests. I hear about government spending money on stupidities when there are real, more urgent matters to fund.

The Ministry of Labor has quite an extensive list of job programs. You might also want to ask your Argentine friends about how it was to get a job 15+ years ago.

This government does whatever it takes to maintain demand in the economy, even if it means high inflation. The government in 2012, through the Central Bank, required all Argentine banks to increase lending to the private sector -- 50 percent of that increase went to small and medium businesses, while the other 50 percent went to large companies. Through programs like Ahora 12, Renovate, etc., the government has aimed to increase/sustain consumer demand. Thus, to say that the government doesn't use public funds to stimulate the economy is completely untrue. Could it do a better job? Certainly, but at least it's doing something, unlike deflationary Europe and the United States.

Many don't enjoy paying taxes (including me!), and we can all find a government program that we don't like or feel deserves more funding. We have that right in a democratic country. But remember, CFK won two elections and still has a pretty high approval rating, somewhere between 40 and 50 percent depending on the pollster. These are the same numbers she had in 2011. Both in 2007 and 2011, the majority made its decision.

Regarding villas and unfinished project homes:

It is true that many villas have increased in population. At the same time, many villas are home to individuals from bordering countries. In the case of Villa 31, more than half of the residents in the 2009 census were from foreign countries. In other words, it is more likely that the villas grew in size because people from bordering countries migrated here and needed a place to live: http://estatico.buen...31_y_31_bis.pdf (Page 8)

Construction projects here take forever. (How long has that once-hotel-now-office-space been under construction next to ICBC in Puerto Madero, for example?) This is true for both public and private housing.

 

[jp]

But remember, CFK won two elections and still has a pretty high approval rating, somewhere between 40 and 50 percent depending on the pollster. These are the same numbers she had in 2011. Both in 2007 and 2011, the majority made its decision.

I honestly don't understand the vitriol the Kirchners provoke. They're far less corrupt than their predecessors, less destructive economically, less divisive socially, less brutal and authoritarian. Squandered opportunities and vast room for improvement - sure. But anyone with a memory of Argentina's recent past, or an understanding of the country's history would have to concede that they are the least worst thing to happen to Argentina in a very long time.


Populism and corruption are just symptoms of a weak democracy. There are no quick fixes for a weak democracy. It takes decades of stability to establish a stable balance of power between conflicting interests, and for people to develop the confidence to work towards achieving long term goals instead of settling for tokens or short term gains.

 

[sesamosinsal]

I honestly don't understand the vitriol the Kirchners provoke. They're far less corrupt than their predecessors, less destructive economically, less divisive socially, less brutal and authoritarian.

De Narváez: Cuando hablan con un presidente de la Nación y vienen a traer cinco mil palos, no te digo que hablan de igual a igual pero hacen las preguntas que tienen que hacer.

Fantino: ¿Qué te preguntan?

De Narváez: Te preguntan eso, dígame usted, el defícit que tiene, cómo.. lo que le falta, ¿Cómo hace? ¿Qué va a hacer? ¿Cuál va a hacer su política monetaria? Y entonces, ¿usted se va a integrar en el mundo? ¿Va a ser un acuerdo directo con los Estados Unidos?

Fantino: Dejame chucearte. O sea, Literalmente..ahora yo soy presidente de Argentina. Discúlpeme, sabe qué, yo manejo el país, no me lo viene a manejar usted.

De Narváez: Bye bye

https://www.youtube....h?v=8v-eHC47byA

 

[EdRooney]

Hey maw,

That's very kind of you to say. I have enjoyed your contributions as well and look forward to interacting with you more on these topics. That said, unfortunately I don't have too much to add on this; I think Brad and JP were (as usual) much more succinct than I could be. "Populism" is a very loaded term and I don't really have a solid definition of it yet, so maybe if the article were a bit more extensive I could say something more intelligent.

 

[Pensador]

I don't see a real difference here: "[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]handing out money you took from someone else" is the function of a state. All public services are working like that and I'd consider it a good thing. The crucial part is whether the redistribution makes sense, which, unfortunately, is often not the case here in my opinion. [/background]

Does not seem like it is the case anywhere these days. Democracy it seems has become a popularity contest form of politics. Which also seems to be heavily driven by entitlement expectations. When I was younger we tended to look down on getting hand outs from the government or anyone else. Now it is considered a right or even further a human right in many cases.

What is particularly disturbing is looking at the spending trends that cannot be supported in the long run. That is unless the sectors of society receiving the programs becoming productive or self sustaining which often is not the result of these programs. But instead the results of these programs become a form of dependency on the programs and thus the political system that provides them. Producing a society that votes not based on what is best for the country or society but what will be best for the recipient of the entitlements.

The US is good example as we have seen these programs explode along with the size of government. But the resulting economic conditions have not kept up with the growth of government or entitlement spending. Of course there are many factors involved but at its core entitlements without fiscal checks and balances can all but destroy your country in the long run. And we are seeing some of that playing out right now down here in the South.

Many people it seems do not want to take the time to understand what is going on beyond what they believe they are entitled to or what will produce the best entitlements for them. They take for granted that the government is under or in control when in fact is far from it. These benefits or entitlements even sound so human and wonderful but yet they can lead to a countries destruction.

The housing bubble was is a great example of government programs for housing and some spinning from the banks that floated masses of people into the mortgages there was no way these people could handle. Yet people went for these programs because they believed the system was being run by capable government and banking systems, which was clearly not the case. These people lost their dream homes and much more. The result...opppsss the great recession.

I am all for lifting people out of poverty. However I am utterly against making them dependent on a system of government, which seems to be the case far to often the way these programs are administered. Which in turn makes the programs and spending unsustainable producing the potential for the collapse of a country.