Prisoners Vote As Well

[Bajo_cero2]

8-year olds have rights too, but we don't let them vote. Society does not deem it appropriate for them to decide their own destiny, much less that of others.

If you do not see the argument for universal suffrage except for people who have been tried before the law and condemned to a prison term, IMHO you've got a problem.

What this country is good at, is deciding whose rights need to be enforced, without too much regard to the consequences vis-a-vis other people (who one assumes also have rights). To quote the famous adage, your right to wave your fist ends where my nose begins.

Well, you should read Nils Christie. He asserts that the 7 million people who are related to the criminal system in the US are mainly Afro Americans (or not WASP) and it alters the voting base. Sorry if I do not quote him because I´m not sure if I read it or I talked about this with him.

FYI:
https://www.electoral.gov.ar/repl.php

"To quote the famous adage, your right to wave your fist ends where my nose begins". Hahahahahahahahahaha. I´m sorry to disappoint you, sorry but you do not exist. I discuss about this with the President who enacted a decree trying to stop my work related to victims of human trafficking and Federal Judges and Prosecutors all around the country. Yesterday I just arrived from Zapala. What about you? attached to the chair doing Google searchs? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahha

You made my day, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

[julian63]

Right! that´s why so many African Americans are under the criminal system.

Another nonsensical non-sequitur. What is your point ? Be specific.

 

[julian63]

Yes, human beings has rights in this country.

Are you trying to say that it is an abuse of one's human or civil rights to deny the right to vote to convicted felons? By the way, does the article you linked above in #11 say convicted felons have the right to vote in Arg or only " las personas detenidas sin condena.?"

 

[julian63]

Well, you should read Nils Christie. He asserts that the 7 million people who are related to the criminal system in the US are mainly Afro Americans (or not WASP) and it alters the voting base. Sorry if I do not quote him because I´m not sure if I read it or I talked about this with him.

FYI:
https://www.electoral.gov.ar/repl.php

"To quote the famous adage, your right to wave your fist ends where my nose begins". Hahahahahahahahahaha. I´m sorry to disappoint you, sorry but you do not exist. I discuss about this with the President who enacted a decree trying to stop my work related to victims of human trafficking and Federal Judges and Prosecutors all around the country. Yesterday I just arrived from Zapala. What about you? attached to the chair doing Google searchs? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahha

You made my day, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

It appears that either you are "losing it" completely or have been drinking since your return from Zapala. The aphorism cited by Ben above and to which you make reference was aptly used by him to justify a restriction on the rights of some to vote. (I always thought it was attributed to the jurist O.W. Holmes, but that is apparently not the case - see https://quoteinvesti...erty-fist-nose/).

The phrase means that one's rights to do something, even seemingly as innocuous as extending an arm, may be circumscribed when it violates more important rights of others. Good government seeks to balance the rights of all in a sensible way. You may think denying the right to vote to convicted felons is a grievous depredation of the convict's civil rights. People of good faith may argue the point, however, few would argue that it is absolutely an unacceptably ridiculous position for a government to take....as you seem to do.

Yes, a high % percentage of those incarcerated in US prisons are African American or non-white. There are reasons for this, but that subject was not the subject of this thread and your mention of it as somehow pertinent to this thread seems to be a stretch in someway to condemn US society as an oppressive, rights-denying country. The USA has social, political and economic issues and residual racism (de facto, not de jure) is one of them, however, if I were an Argentine, I would be slow to criticize the problems of any other country, the USA included. And I wouldn't do it just because some jurisdictions (it is state by state) deny the right to vote to convicted felons.

Your work relating to stopping human trafficking is to be applauded. Don't try to demean others because they participate in this forum. You also seem to spend a lot of time here.

 

[Girino]

I went to dig on the issue in my country (Italy).
It looks like that convicted with a sentence of 5 years or more cannot vote while detained, but their right to vote can be reinstated once they're out of prison.
If the conviction is less than 5 years, prisoners can usually vote, but there is a domicile requisite that most prisoners do not fulfill (just bureaucracy, they must move their domicile within the prison so that they can vote there. If their domicile is in a different region, they cannot vote).
Additionally, in the sentence the judge can expressly state the temporary deprivation of voting rights as an additional sentence, depending on the nature fo the crime the person is convicted for.

Forever banning voting exist only for those with a perpetual sentence.

In 2011 the Human Right Courts deemed that Italy's deprivation of voting rights for those with a sentence of 5 years or more was legitimate.
There are about 30,000 prisoners who could vote, but only 1,400 usually vote. There are 47 millions Italian with the right to vote.

Likely, there are more Italians with the right to vote in Argentina and I guess not even 1400 do actually vote (most of them don't care and don't follow Italian politics anyway).

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Another nonsensical non-sequitur. What is your point ? Be specific.

Read Nils Christie or at least wikipedia about him. I cannot solve the lack of knowledge in a thread.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Are you trying to say that it is an abuse of one's human or civil rights to deny the right to vote to convicted felons? By the way, does the article you linked above in #11 say convicted felons have the right to vote in Arg or only " las personas detenidas sin condena.?"

80% of people under arrest are not convicted in this country.
The 2 people who voted and everybody here were scandalized are not convicted.
You need to be convicted to over 3 years to have your legal capacity suspended.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Yes, a high % percentage of those incarcerated in US prisons are African American or non-white. There are reasons for this, but that subject was not the subject of this thread and your mention of it as somehow pertinent to this thread seems to be a stretch in someway to condemn US society as an oppressive, rights-denying country. The USA has social, political and economic issues and residual racism (de facto, not de jure) is one of them, however, if I were an Argentine, I would be slow to criticize the problems of any other country, the USA included. And I wouldn't do it just because some jurisdictions (it is state by state) deny the right to vote to convicted felons.

Or what? This is one of the most stupid comments I read of you.

I quote a leading case that allows people in jail to vote because I participated in a chat during dinner with Nils Christie and the lawyers of that case and they were talking about how in America jail is use to alter the voting base and this is why they decided to do that lawsuit. So, I m sorry if you cannot use the quote search....

There are many ways to alter the voting base. To ban people at jail of the right to vote is one of them that seems to be use in the US where the amount of people in jail is too high.

Here in Argentina Perón altered the voting base selecting immigration: banning immigrants from countries with a strong culture of division or power and allowing mainly italians from the Mussolini regime to come. This is why peronism become so strong.

Also he provided voting rights to women not because he recognize the feminist fights made by women like Emilia Salinas o Julieta Lantern de Ranshaw, instead he did it to win the elections and jeep power for ever.

Was it clear enough for you to understand it without going to the quote search?

 

[Bajo_cero2]

There are about 30,000 prisoners who could vote, but only 1,400 usually vote. There are 47 millions Italian with the right to vote.

But there about 7 million people banned of voting in the US and this is why its bad example was relevant. As soon as to be in jail is almost an automatic ban for the voting rights, it is an incentive to imprison opponents. Peron did it in large ammounts.

 

[Girino]

But there about 7 million people banned of voting in the US and this is why its bad example was relevant. As soon as to be in jail is almost an automatic ban for the voting rights, it is an incentive to imprison opponents. Peron did it in large ammounts.

An abuse of a tool is not the tool's fault.

A person who is imprisoned has hurt someone else or the whole society, so I don't see why he/she still should still have a say. Imprisonment is a suspension of an individual normal life - they lose their physical freedom and their political rights. (I wouldn't say that the right to vote is a human right, indeed, some people are willingly abstaining from voting and they don't feel they are deprived in any way from this.

Now, if you are saying that Peron or in the US they put people in jail only to not let them vote, that I cannot comment as I am not informed about it (sounds expensive). But you cannot be against a tool (in this case a suspension of the right to vote) only because in certain case it is misused. The misuse is at fault, not the tool. Along this line of thought, so we must deduce that since some people wrongly jailed, jail should be illegal because it can be / is misused against some individuals.