Realistic to Move to Argentina and Live Off Investments?

[toongeorges]

it's time now to find a specialist tax accountant.

That advice is not very useful, I have been in OP's situation and in Argentina's case the wealth tax issue is crystal clear and there are no exceptions, unlike taxes in other countries where there might be some deductions if you file your taxes in a certain way.

AFIP has a decent website about the matter: https://servicioscf.afip.gob.ar/publico/sitio/contenido/novedad/ver.aspx?id=1904

The only exception you have on the Argentine wealth tax is that you can deduct mortgages from the value of your houses.

Then it is up to you to decide if you want to declare all your assets or not. Many Argentines do not declare what they have and then the wealth tax is no issue.

If you contact a lawyer or accountant, they will never officially recommend you that you should not declare your assets or pay your taxes, they could at most suggest that this is a possibility you could do, but something you decide without their involvement.

 

[Alby]

I agree it's crystal clear. But OP is being told (possibly by people with an interest in doing so), that he or she can find ways out of it. He or she needs an expert to explain why that is not the case, and how he or she can manage their time in Argentina so to not qualify as a tax resident. OP may be able to find a solution that meets whatever his or her yearning to be here is. But if that solution is temporary and permanent residency, that leads inexorably to the problem we are discussing.

He not a tax resident yet. So he doesn't have to be advised to how he can break the law. He needs to be shown what steps would lead him into strife, and when. Then he can decide whether to pursue this or look elsewhere.

It's due diligence before the fact. Tax accountants can help with that.

 

[steveinbsas]

I have been in OP's situation and in Argentina's case the wealth tax issue is crystal clear and there are no exceptions, unlike taxes in other countries where there might be some deductions if you file your taxes in a certain way.

1. I have annual income from a foreign asset amd I do not declare the vaue of the asset or pay any wealth tax on it in Argentina.

2. I don't make a bienes personales declaration every year.I only did so a few years ago afer AFIP "blocked" my online account after I hadn't filled a declaration in ten years. I went online to make a constancia of my QUI and that's hen I discovered my account was blocked. AFIP never actually contacted me.

3: I never had to prove to AFIP or show them anything that revealed the source of the income or the value of the asset that prcuces my foreign income.AFIP has never asked any questions about my income. I only had to she migraciones the docs and a letter from an officer at my US bank which confirmed the amount and duration of monthly income...not the value of the asset itself...in ther words, that the monthly income was stable and woulld continue withut interruption.

(As a matter of fact, I had been receing the monthly income from the asset since I moved to Sayulia Mexico, in 200, more than five years before I ever set foot in Argentina for the first time.)

4. I made two year's declaratons for the wealth tax about five years ago that showed the end of year balalnces in my bank acounts, in the USA and , the details of the car I bought in 2010 ad a copy of the escriutra for the purchase of my house here in 2011.

The combined tax valuation of the house and car has always been beow the tax floor the bienes personales.I did not have to reveal any details about the asset that produces my foreign monthly income. I nly had to do thaat for Migraciones when I applied fr temprary resdency annd renwewd it three thines, but only to the extent that I culd demonstrate that I was eceiving the requireed mnthly income to qalify for and renww the temporary residency.

Except for 2006, 2007, and 2008 I have not paid any bienes personales tax in Argentina and I have never paid any income tax in the country (or even made a declaration) and I am in FULL compliance with the laws.

Then it is up to you to decide if you want to declare all your assets or not. Many Argentines do not declare what they have and then the wealth tax is no issue.

I don't think it's a big secret that many Argentines onot declare at least "some" of their income, either. I don't have any Argenine income to declare and, since I transfer al of my foreign income from y US bank to my Argentine bank, I have no way to hide anyhting frm AFIP if they decide to investigate.but it's fine with me if they do- I never transfer more each month than the piso de gananciias (now just over $700.000 pesos, Until a month ago I was rarely over $320.000

Franklly, I dont know why anyone who was applying for the visa rentsa would ever reveal or provide any "evidence" to migraciones that they that have any more momthly income or the assets to produce it in excess of the amount needed to qualify for temporary (as well as live in Argentia) in the first place. Earlier in this thread it was implied that migraciones checks out visa rentista applicants and share the information with AFIP, but I've never heard or read that they do so. I belive that it is only necessary to provie enough financial information to migraciones tp "proove· that the mnthly ncome requrement is met with "verifiable" (and hecne legally acquired) funds.

If you contact a lawyer or accountant, they will never officially recommend you that you should not declare your assets or pay your taxes, they could at most suggest that this is a possibility you could do, but something you decide without their involvement.

Probably not, but no Argentne accountant or lawyer would be legally empowered to do what my lawyer and acoutant in the US did for me,,,and they would probably be clueless about how to go about it.

 

[oddDistribution]

That precisely why you need a different specialist. The tax issues are complicated. And they move around. The immigration guys have a general knowledge but no real incentive to go deeper, or to keep up with the changes.

You've said you want to live here "long term". How long is that? Forever? Maybe you can keep renewing your temporary residency every year, year in year out, without ever applying for that to become permanent residency. But even if that were possible, I doubt it would get you out of tax obligations other than under a very simplistic reading of the legislation (although perhaps a temporary resident can keep their nose clean by being sure to leave for 3 months of each 12). But endlessly renewing a Rentista-based temporary residency would be an expensive annual bureaucratic nightmare (and, like the tax business, subject to jolts in the form of rule changes). You'd have a very long term relationship with your immigration lawyer.

I guess your first step is actually to clarify exactly what you want, and why. If "long term" is say "5 years", the solutions are different to those if it is "forever"

It's hard to say for sure, but I would like the option to stay forever if possible. If I meet someone there and want to settle down, I don't want to be forced to leave.

 

[steveinbsas]

I agree it's crystal clear. But OP is being told (possibly by people with an interest in doing so), that he or she can find ways out of it. He or she needs an expert to explain why that is not the case, and how he or she can manage their time in Argentina so to not qualify as a tax resident.

Just to be crystal clear, I am saying it IS `possible NOT to pay the bienes personales wealth tax on your foreign assets even if you DO qualify as a tax "resident" in Argentna...

OP may be able to find a solution that meets whatever his or her yearning to be here is. But if that solution is temporary and permanent residency, that leads inexorably to the problem we are discussing.

and the solution, whether you are a temporay or a permanent resident is NOT to have the assets in your own name.,..just be the "income beneficiary" of the assets when they are held in a trust.

He is not a tax resident yet. So he doesn't have to be advised to how he can break the law. He needs to be shown what steps would lead him into strife, and when. Then he can decide whether to pursue this or look elsewhere.

It won't be breaking any laws to do this.

It's due diligence before the fact. Tax accountants can help with that.

A US attorney who knows how to set up trusts can do this.

An Argentine attorney cannot, not even an Argentine attorney who specializes in immigration. and knows about or is even an "expert"US tax laws.

I presented Argentine migraciones with an apostilled and translated copy of my trust document with a notarized cover letter signed by the lawyer who set up the trust when I first applied for temporary and for each of the three renewals.

Based on what I knew about itthe requirements for the Argentine temporary resident visa.I actually wrote the cover leter for the lawyer.

I also presented a letter from an officer at my US bank which confrmed that I was receiving checks in the amount of $1000 on a monthly basis from the brokerage where the funds in the trust were invested

Of course I wrote the letter myself.

I provided an updated letter from the bank officer each year until I received permanent residency, but I never had to update the letter from the lawyer, as the trust was irrevocable.

I never provided any docs from an accoutnant to migraciones and they never asked for any of my US bank statements, but I realized that may have changed since then. They asked for ATM receipts on the first renewal and told me to open an Argentine bank account. Nonetheless, I continued to use ATM's in Argentina to get pesos.

I believe the biggest myth on this subject is that it is necessary to use an Argentine lawyer to apply for or renew temporary residency.

I do however, based on personal experience, believe it is advisable to have an Argentine accountant file the declarations for the bienes personales tax if and when it is required.

 

[oddDistribution]

1. I have annual income from a foreign asset amd I do not declare the vaue of the asset or pay any wealth tax on it in Argentina.

2. I don't make a bienes personales declaration every year.I only did so a few years ago afer AFIP "blocked" my online account after I hadn't filled a declaration in ten years. I went online to make a constancia of my QUI and that's hen I discovered my account was blocked. AFIP never actually contacted me.

3: I never had to prove to AFIP or show them anything that revealed the source of the income or the value of the asset that prcuces my foreign income.AFIP has never asked any questions about my income. I only had to she migraciones the docs and a letter from an officer at my US bank which confirmed the amount and duration of monthly income...not the value of the asset itself...in ther words, that the monthly income was stable and woulld continue withut interruption.

(As a matter of fact, I had been receing the monthly income from the asset since I moved to Sayulia Mexico, in 200, more than five years before I ever set foot in Argentina for the first time.)

4. I made two year's declaratons for the wealth tax about five years ago that showed the end of year balalnces in my bank acounts, in the USA and , the details of the car I bought in 2010 ad a copy of the escriutra for the purchase of my house here in 2011.

The combined tax valuation of the house and car has always been beow the tax floor the bienes personales.I did not have to reveal any details about the asset that produces my foreign monthly income. I nly had to do thaat for Migraciones when I applied fr temprary resdency annd renwewd it three thines, but only to the extent that I culd demonstrate that I was eceiving the requireed mnthly income to qalify for and renww the temporary residency.

Except for 2006, 2007, and 2008 I have not paid any bienes personales tax in Argentina and I have never paid any income tax in the country (or even made a declaration) and I am in FULL compliance with the laws.



I don't think it's a big secret that many Argentines onot declare at least "some" of their income, either. I don't have any Argenine income to declare and, since I transfer al of my foreign income from y US bank to my Argentine bank, I have no way to hide anyhting frm AFIP if they decide to investigate.but it's fine with me if they do- I never transfer more each month than the piso de gananciias (now just over $700.000 pesos, Until a month ago I was rarely over $320.000

Franklly, I dont know why anyone who was applying for the visa rentsa would ever reveal or provide any "evidence" to migraciones that they that have any more momthly income or the assets to produce it in excess of the amount needed to qualify for temporary (as well as live in Argentia) in the first place. Earlier in this thread it was implied that migraciones checks out visa rentista applicants and share the information with AFIP, but I've never heard or read that they do so. I belive that it is only necessary to provie enough financial information to migraciones tp "proove· that the mnthly ncome requrement is met with "verifiable" (and hecne legally acquired) funds.


Probably not, but no Argentne accountant or lawyer would be legally empowered to do what my lawyer and acoutant in the US did for me,,,and they would probably be clueless about how to go about it.

Thank you for your detailed reply steveinbsas! It's really helpful to hear about your circumstance.

Just to be crystal clear, I am saying it IS `possible NOT to pay the bienes personales wealth tax on your foreign assets even if you DO qualify as a tax "resident" in Argentna...



and the solution, whether you are a temporay or a permanent resident is NOT to have the assets in your own name.,..just be the "income beneficiary" of the assets when they are held in a trust.



It won't be breaking any laws to do this.

A US attorney who knows how to set up trusts can do this.

An Argentine attorney cannot, not even an Argentine attorney who specializes in immigration. and knows about or is even an "expert"US tax laws.

I presented Argentine migraciones with an apostilled and translated copy of my trust document with a notarized cover letter signed by the lawyer who set up the trust when I first applied for temporary and for each of the three renewals.

Based on what I knew about itthe requirements for the Argentine temporary resident visa.I actually wrote the cover leter for the lawyer.

I also presented a letter from an officer at my US bank which confrmed that I was receiving checks in the amount of $1000 on a monthly basis from the brokerage where the funds in the trust were invested

Of course I wrote the letter myself.

I provided an updated letter from the bank officer each year until I received permanent residency, but I never had to update the letter from the lawyer, as the trust was irrevocable.

I never provided any docs from an accoutnant to migraciones and they never asked for any of my US bank statements, but I realized that may have changed since then. They asked for ATM receipts on the first renewal and told me to open an Argentine bank account. Nonetheless, I continued to use ATM's in Argentina to get pesos.

I believe the biggest myth on this subject is that it is necessary to use an Argentine lawyer to apply for or renew temporary residency.

I do however, based on personal experience, believe it is advisable to have an Argentine accountant file the declarations for the bienes personales tax if and when it is required.

Thank you for your detailed reply. I'm familiar with the concept of revocable/irrevocable trusts. Based on my understanding, the drawback to putting your assets into an irrevocable trust is that you can never get the principal back. You can only receive the income that those assets produce. Or, maybe there is a small amount you can take per year beyond the income generated. I'm not sure if I would be comfortable with that for my stock/bond investments, but that's an interesting option.

Do you think it's possible for an inexperienced person to get a 1 year rentista visa without help from an attorney? The attorney I spoke with seemed good, but was not cheap.

 

[steveinbsas]

I never had to update the letter from the lawyer, as the trust was irrevocable.

PS: If you don't want to "lock" your assets in an "irrecovcable" trust, just set up one that is "revocable" and update the cover letter from the lawyer each year to "certify" to migraciones that it is still in force

 

[oddDistribution]

PS: If you don't want to "lock" your assets in an "irrecovcable" trust, just set up one that is "revocable" and update the cover letter from the lawyer each year to "certify" to migraciones that it is still in force

This sounds more appealing than the irrevocable option to me personally.

 

[steveinbsas]

Thank you for your detailed reply steveinbsas! It's really helpful to hear about your circumstance.


Thank you for your detailed reply. I'm familiar with the concept of revocable/irrevocable trusts. Based on my understanding, the drawback to putting your assets into an irrevocable trust is that you can never get the principal back. You can only receive the income that those assets produce. Or, maybe there is a small amount you can take per year beyond the income generated. I'm not sure if I would be comfortable with that for my stock/bond investments, but that's an interesting option.

zperhaps
The trust can be written so that the trustee can "invade" the principle" as previously agreedon in the terms of the trust, but the beneficiary cannot do so at will. A trust for mgraciojes should not have to be irrevocable. My trust was already irrecovable, five years befoore I first set foot in Argentina.

Do you think it's possible for an inexperienced person to get a 1 year rentista visa without help from an attorney? The attorney I spoke with seemed good, but was not cheap.

I fired the attorney my first and only Argentine girlfriend insisted I use, broke up with her, and went to migraciones with a lovely woman I met on the sdewalk in front of my girlfriend's office building, so I know from personal experience that it is not only possible, it is highly desirable.

Thank you for your detailed reply.

You are moost welcome.

I'm familiar with the concept of revocable/irrevocable trusts. Based on my understanding, the drawback to putting your assets into an irrevocable trust is that you can never get the principal back. You can only receive the income that those assets produce. Or, maybe there is a small amount you can take per year beyond the income generated. I'm not sure if I would be comfortable with that for my stock/bond investments, but that's an interesting option.

I cannot touch the principle of my trust or make withdrals at will, but the trustee can (and has) made advances of future distributions upon my request.

Do you think it's possible for an inexperienced person to get a 1 year rentista visa without help from an attorney? The attorney I spoke with seemed good, but was not cheap.

I went to migraciones with the lovely woman who was holding a clipboard and conducting interviews on the sidewalk in front of my soon to be ex Argentine girlfriend. She also went with me for the first two renewals. After that I did everything on my own. It only cost me a few dinners and a "little black dress" for her to wear.

The very nice Argentine wife of a Canadian I knew did make a number of calls for me when I was applying for permanent residency on the third renewal, so I would know exactly when to return to migraciones for the final step of the process.

 

[Alby]

Do you think it's possible for an inexperienced person to get a 1 year rentista visa without help from an attorney? The attorney I spoke with seemed good, but was not cheap.

Absolutely not. Today, the rentista temporary residency is the most complicated category imaginable. Especially when you start getting into having to document complex financial arrangements that generate the income. Poke around on some recent threads on the subject, where you will see this discussed.

(Check the capital gains tax implications in your home jurisdiction of changing the ownership structure of your assets to a trust. If there are any (there are in some), the hit might be even more than the money you save on paying Argentina's wealth tax.)