Should you renew residency before applying for citizenship at year 2?

[steveinbsas]

SecretShopper indicaed he wanted to open a bar in Argentina and he might be able to do so with a CUIT (I sincerely hope he doesn't), so I also wonder if migraciones would consider running his own business as an acceptable source of income when applyig for permanent residecy afer three years as a student.

I realize that SecretShopper has no desire to obtain permanent residency, only citizenship so he can get an Argentine passport, but it would be great to know if it is actually possible to get permanent residency after being a student for three years, just ncase anyone else wants to know.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

There is nothing in the law that prohibits students with valid residency under the immigration law to obtain either permanent residency and/or citizenship. NOTHING. As long as one has had 2 years on continuous legal residence in ARG under any of the immigration categories (except transitoria, aka tourist) it should not be a problem. It can become an issue only if legal residence expires while one is applying for la carta de ciudadania and it cannot be renewed/extended. The judge may reject the case if at the time of the sentencia you are no-longer resident. Then it becomes more complicated and would likely require the help of an experienced immigrations lawyer. As always there is no one size fits all rule here, everyones circumstances are different.

You have zero chances to win a case based on being a student instead of an honest worker.
The problem you do not see is the silence of the law as covered by roman law that when describes the inhabitant exclude students. There are only 2 Prosecutors and they know this.
There was only one isolated precedent in Paraná Federal Chamber of Appeals that had zero influence in the doctrine of the Federal Courts where citizenship was granted to a student because of being a student. I lost all the appeals where I quoted it.
So, do not mention you are student and focus on the evidence of your work.
As as soon as you show you know to read in Spanish, read art. 25 of the National Constitution:

Constitución Nacional Nacional​

Artículo 25.​

El Gobierno federal fomentará la inmigración europea; y no podrá restringir, limitar ni gravar con impuesto alguno la entrada en el territorio argentino de los extranjeros que traigan por objeto labrar la tierra, mejorar las industrias, e introducir y enseñar las ciencias y las artes.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

As far as I know, unless the rules (aka laws) have changed since I was granted permanent residency, migraciones may grant permanent residency on the third renewal of temporary residency. This means one must have three consecutive years of temporary residency before thay can apply for the cambio de categoria from temporary to permanent resdiency.

I have never heard of or read any posts about anyone who was granted permenent residencyon the third renewal of temporary residency based on being a student. I have only read posts that inidicate it is not possible.

As SecretShopper has indicated, he knows he will not be able to renew his student visa if he does not "attend" classes (either in person or online) and does not complete the course work, so getting a new student visa year on year will not be of any use if he ever wanted to apply for permanent residency.

Someone recently the expresion "fake enrollment" as a way to get temporary residency, but I seriously doubt that is possible. SecretShopper's enrollment as a student is undoubtedly real. His status a a student, however, could be described as fake (no insult intended).

SecretShopper has made no secret of the fact that he never had a desire to be a student in Argenitna, Enrolling as a student was just the way to get temporary residency.Nor has he made it a secret that he has no desire to live in Argentina. All he really wants is an Argentine passport and is still searching for the easiest countries in which to get a second passport (assuming he only has one now).

Bajo_Cero2 has recently posted that being a student is not a reason to get citizenship, but two years of "residency" (being in Argentina most of that time) is required. In his most recent post he suggested not revealing to the court that you are a student, but if the court checks with migraciones that information could easily become known. If the court only checks with migraciones to know your entry and exit dates, then it might not be an issue.

He added that you must be working in Argentina, that you don't have to be working in blanco, and the income does not have to be significant. It has to be "an honest (non-criminal) "means of living" and I imagine a judge would be satisfied if the income was "enough to live on" in Argentina. It would be interesting to know if, at the time you apply for citizenship, you must demonstrate "an honest means of living" in Argentina and that it must be certified by an Argentine accountant.

Even if someone actually completes three years as a temporary resident based on being a student, I seriously doubt that migraciones would actually grant permanent residency on the third renewal unless that individual could show a source of income (not just savings on deposit in a foreign or even an Argentine bank account).

While working in Argentina is allowed on a student visa, I wonder if contnuing that employmet could be considered in the decision to grant or deny permanent residency after three years as a student of if that would require gettig a work visa or the visa rentista or pensionda and starting over.

SecretShopper indicaed he wanted to open a bar in Argentina and he might be able to do so with a CUIT (I sincerely hope he doesn't), so I also wonder if migraciones would consider running his own business as an acceptable source of income when applyig for permanent residecy afer three years as a student.

I imagine the citizenship court would consider running his own business as an "honest means of living" but, as an entrepeneur who started a number of my own businesses in the USA from age 20 to 50 (including a bar), I can think of several easier and safer ways (with no risk to the initial investment) to open and operate a business in Argentna that would likely satisfy the court and might not even taxable (if the numbers are low enough), although paying the monthy fee to be a monotribusta for as long a period of time it takes to qualify for citizenship would probably be worth it.

Judges ask a full report of your legal status instead of in & outs if you apply alone.
The point here is the affidavit you sign to start the case. You cannot mention there you are a student or a refugee. In the second case they can freeze the case until your refugee status is granted and they are almost never granted. It means appeals against immigration for 5/7 years while your citizenship is frozen while you pay the fees for 2 cases. It makes no sense.
Immigration double checks if you are going to clases or not. Chinese nationals until 2014 used that path to immigrate to Argentina, so I had a lot of cases like that.
To enroll in a fake student visa is a mistake because sooner or later you are going to get a deportation order. You can apply by your self without a deportation order but you need legal representation if you have one. Even with a lawyer, you might have to apply more than once to win the case.
Judges, or the employed they have, normally ask for the accountant certification. If you work under the table, you need legal representation.

 

[SecretShopper]

As far as I know, unless the rules (aka laws) have changed since I was granted permanent residency, migraciones may grant permanent residency on the third renewal of temporary residency. This means one must have three consecutive years of temporary residency before thay can apply for the cambio de categoria from temporary to permanent resdiency.

I have never heard of or read any posts about anyone who was granted permenent residencyon the third renewal of temporary residency based on being a student. I have only read posts that inidicate it is not possible.

As SecretShopper has indicated, he knows he will not be able to renew his student visa if he does not "attend" classes (either in person or online) and does not complete the course work, so getting a new student visa year on year will not be of any use if he ever wanted to apply for permanent residency.

Someone recently the expresion "fake enrollment" as a way to get temporary residency, but I seriously doubt that is possible. SecretShopper's enrollment as a student is undoubtedly real. His status a a student, however, could be described as fake (no insult intended).

SecretShopper has made no secret of the fact that he never had a desire to be a student in Argenitna, Enrolling as a student was just the way to get temporary residency.Nor has he made it a secret that he has no desire to live in Argentina. All he really wants is an Argentine passport and is still searching for the easiest countries in which to get a second passport (assuming he only has one now).

Bajo_Cero2 has recently posted that being a student is not a reason to get citizenship, but two years of "residency" (being in Argentina most of that time) is required. In his most recent post he suggested not revealing to the court that you are a student, but if the court checks with migraciones that information could easily become known. If the court only checks with migraciones to know your entry and exit dates, then it might not be an issue.

He added that you must be working in Argentina, that you don't have to be working in blanco, and the income does not have to be significant. It has to be "an honest (non-criminal) "means of living" and I imagine a judge would be satisfied if the income was "enough to live on" in Argentina. It would be interesting to know if, at the time you apply for citizenship, you must demonstrate "an honest means of living" in Argentina and that it must be certified by an Argentine accountant.

Even if someone actually completes three years as a temporary resident based on being a student, I seriously doubt that migraciones would actually grant permanent residency on the third renewal unless that individual could show a source of income (not just savings on deposit in a foreign or even an Argentine bank account).

While working in Argentina is allowed on a student visa, I wonder if contnuing that employmet could be considered in the decision to grant or deny permanent residency after three years as a student of if that would require gettig a work visa or the visa rentista or pensionda and starting over.

SecretShopper indicaed he wanted to open a bar in Argentina and he might be able to do so with a CUIT (I sincerely hope he doesn't), so I also wonder if migraciones would consider running his own business as an acceptable source of income when applyig for permanent residecy afer three years as a student.

I imagine the citizenship court would consider running his own business as an "honest means of living" but, as an entrepeneur who started a number of my own businesses in the USA from age 20 to 50 (including a bar), I can think of several easier and safer ways (with no risk to the initial investment) to open and operate a business in Argentna that would likely satisfy the court and might not even taxable (if the numbers are low enough), although paying the monthy fee to be a monotribusta for as long a period of time it takes to qualify for citizenship would probably be worth it.

It's not just any passport but rather another tier 1 passport. Argentina has the only 1 that is reasonable to obtain. The cheap tier 1 to buy is 1 million dollars in Malta basically. Or buy a 500k house in Portugal and then wait 5 years. If it was any passport I'd just buy one for 100k from one of the islands.

I think the best thing to do as far as earning an honest living is teach English. Starting a business was never an attempt to use that as income for citizenship. So after reading the stories here I kind of abandoned that plan.

As it looks, I'll likely be forced to hire a lawyer and apply while having an imperfect case. And then hope for luck. Maybe in the end it'll just be flushing money down the toilet. I guess I'll find out.

 

[dsp27]

You have zero chances to win a case based on being a student instead of an honest worker.
The problem you do not see is the silence of the law as covered by roman law that when describes the inhabitant exclude students. There are only 2 Prosecutors and they know this.
There was only one isolated precedent in Paraná Federal Chamber of Appeals that had zero influence in the doctrine of the Federal Courts where citizenship was granted to a student because of being a student. I lost all the appeals where I quoted it.
So, do not mention you are student and focus on the evidence of your work.
As as soon as you show you know to read in Spanish, read art. 25 of the National Constitution:

Constitución Nacional Nacional​

Artículo 25.​

El Gobierno federal fomentará la inmigración europea; y no podrá restringir, limitar ni gravar con impuesto alguno la entrada en el territorio argentino de los extranjeros que traigan por objeto labrar la tierra, mejorar las industrias, e introducir y enseñar las ciencias y las artes.

tal cual

 

[Abuyas]

But if one cant apply for the citizenship based on being a monotributo, why not apply, when entrando al país, for the visa based on investment? It's required 1000.000 pesos argentinos.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

But if one cant apply for the citizenship based on being a monotributo, why not apply, when entrando al país, for the visa based on investment? It's required 1000.000 pesos argentinos.

Because full citizenship is based on living here for 2 years. You are confusing the requirements for the provincial second class citizenship of CABA (legal residency) based on a selection by income, nationality, etc.. If you want to reserch about it, google for latin status at roman law.

 

[bdk1]

It's not just any passport but rather another tier 1 passport. Argentina has the only 1 that is reasonable to obtain. The cheap tier 1 to buy is 1 million dollars in Malta basically. Or buy a 500k house in Portugal and then wait 5 years. If it was any passport I'd just buy one for 100k from one of the islands.

Slightly off-topic, but why do you consider an Argentine passport a tier 1 passport? I have always thought of it as a tier 2 passport. Yes, it gives you visa-free travel rights to a lot of countries, but (with the exception of Russia), most of them already give visa-free travel rights to US passport holders too.

In fact, when you enter the EU with your Argie passport they will likely ask a lot of questions and ask for proof of funds, travel health insurance, etc., whereas with the US passport (even though the entry requirements are the same) they will most likely just say good day and stamp it.

It gives you no working rights whatsoever in the EU, and you can’t even avail of the shortened 2-year residency requirement in Spain to acquire Spanish citizenship (this only applies to Argentine-born nationals as was previously discussed in this forum).

It is very helpful if you want to live in a South American country, though, especially Mercosur ones or those with a bilateral residency agreement.

I would consider tier 1 passports those which give you working and residency rights in multiple first-world countries plus visa-free travel in many more, such as most Western European ones. Post-Brexit, one of the best passports right now is the Irish one, since it’s the only one that gives you working rights in all of the EU plus the UK.

 

[SecretShopper]

Slightly off-topic, but why do you consider an Argentine passport a tier 1 passport? I have always thought of it as a tier 2 passport. Yes, it gives you visa-free travel rights to a lot of countries, but (with the exception of Russia), most of them already give visa-free travel rights to US passport holders too.

In fact, when you enter the EU with your Argie passport they will likely ask a lot of questions and ask for proof of funds, travel health insurance, etc., whereas with the US passport (even though the entry requirements are the same) they will most likely just say good day and stamp it.

It gives you no working rights whatsoever in the EU, and you can’t even avail of the shortened 2-year residency requirement in Spain to acquire Spanish citizenship (this only applies to Argentine-born nationals as was previously discussed in this forum).

It is very helpful if you want to live in a South American country, though, especially Mercosur ones or those with a bilateral residency agreement.

I would consider tier 1 passports those which give you working and residency rights in multiple first-world countries plus visa-free travel in many more, such as most Western European ones. Post-Brexit, one of the best passports right now is the Irish one, since it’s the only one that gives you working rights in all of the EU plus the UK.

By your standards, the US passport isn't even a tier 1 passport because it doesn't provide work rights in many countries. I'm only basing it off of countries you can enter visa free or visa on arrival. With that criteria the Arg passport is top 20 in the world. And the Mercosur access to live and work is a very nice benefit. The simple fact is that most Americans don't have lineage outside of the US that could get them into Europe.

 

[Alby]

I think the best thing to do as far as earning an honest living is teach English.

I can't wait to hear Red's take on this. And he will be right.