`the Death of America - 21/01/10 - R.I.P.

ElQueso said:
Or we could just ignore your conspiracy theories and discuss what we want to discuss.

That's a feeble attempt to dismiss the issue at hand. Are you going to call Thomas Jefferson a conspiracy theorists as well? This was his warning:

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered...I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."

Which is exactly what is happening right now. But sure, ignore his warnings. You know better than him right? Keep quarreling over what banker's puppet is better. You seem to be good at it.
 
-Sounds to me like he was trying to blame banks for his being in perpetual debt.

It's hard to take seriously a man who fathers children with his slave while claiming to be an abolitionist.

Neil
 
Denver said:
-Sounds to me like he was trying to blame banks for his being in perpetual debt.

It's hard to take seriously a man who fathers children with his slave while claiming to be an abolitionist.

Neil

He's hard to take serious? He was one of the most influential founding fathers, one of the principal authors of the declaration of independence and you don't take him serious? Do you even know your own history? If you think Thomas Jefferson is bad, what do you think of the contemporary republicans like Bush? Sounds to me like you're justifying fascism in America.
 
Orwellian, you are (at least partially) right and I apologize for being dismissive.

The truth is there are many, many problems in the US politically these days. To fix the problem you are talking about is not a simple one. In the meantime, Obama is making things worse, and if he's a puppet of the bankers (the problem is, I don't think it's as black and white as you say), fighting Obama is fighting the bankers. It is certainly fighting those who would spend too much money and bankrupt the US.

BTW - I'm not arguing over who's better. I'm fighting over what Obama is doing, as I fought over what Bush did when he was in office. I just wasn't around at that time on this website.

I'm a Libertarian and I think both the Democrats and the Republicans are wrong-headed, greedy, power hungry asswipes who need to be voted out of office.

Right now I am pleased that the Republicans are fighting the Democrats. You say the bankers, but I don't care in this case - the healthcare abomination that the Democrats are trying to force down the throats of the American public is an immediate threat and I applaud their efforts to stop it.

Really and truly, I am much more worried about the Chinese and the fact that we owe an unbelievable amount of money to them - and yes, they are bankers in this regard.

I recently went and looked at the Tea Party website with the thought of seeing what's going on. What I like about them is the fact that they are (for the most part) staying away from seriously devisive issues like religion and concentrating on economy, law and adhering to the Constitution - even restricting those elected to pwoer in the US, which I have mixed feelings about.

They are doing some dumb things like inviting Sarah Palin to speak at their first international convention and there was another idiot that spoke and said something like Obama's supporters who voted for him couldn't even spell the word "vote". I am following them to see where this goes - I don't like Sarah Palin and I hope they stay away from weirdos. If not, I will look somewhere else.

They are developing a "contract from America" that is basically a list of things that they want candidates they will support to adhere to - their platform even though they are not an official party. They are taking suggestions from members and discussing and voting on the suggestions. They are economically and constitutionally conservative suggestions and so far nothing has made it into the top-voted items related to overwhelming religion except for one section where they have set aside for religion. I don't think they'll get any traction with those kind of things - and no one really seems to be pushing it.

Something like this could help. It's not the solution. The solution is to get people arguing about politics again, discussing the Constitution again, and understanding that the people, right now, are giving away their birthright as Big Papa wraps his arms around the people and makes everything "alright."
 
Thanks for an interesting discussion on this ElQueso. I don't things are black and white either but I do see Democrats and Republicans being equally responsible for the crisis and committing the same mistakes (or taking the same orders).
I label myself as a socialist but if I were American I'd vote for a republican like Ron Paul. Not because he is republican but because he is pushing the important issues like getting rid of the FED and restoring the constitution. Which neither the Democratic or the Republican party is talking about. I think this is the real issue that needs to be discussed, especially now because of the crisis they have put us in (Democrats and Republicans).
Also, I agree with you that inviting Sarah Palin is a stupid idea. I am sure "we the people" will continue to make similar mistakes in the future. But what's important, IMO, is that we put aside our political differences and focus on the real issues at hand, as described above.
 
I'm a big fan of Ron Paul - actually a Libertarian from the Great State of Texas although currently a Republican of convenience. I'd love to see him president. I should add, a congressman that I have voted for repeatedly.

And you are completely correct about the FED and restoring consitutional rule. Things have really gotten out of control.

These issues really do make healthcare pale in comparison - we can't begin to fix something as important as health care until we get the government itself under control. Tha'ts part of what fired me off - I think the Republicans are realizing that to an extent, and I think the Democrats are drunk on power and about to do some dangerous things before we can get the real things fixed. May argument below was just a small part of how I feel about a lot of things - in this case how badly the Democrats are hiding things and pushing a dangerous agenda.

The Republicans are as corrupt in their own way as well. There are many power hungry and greedy folks amongst the Republicans. I'm hoping that true conservative (not religious!) convictions can be returned - I see activists like the Tea Party and have some hope that we can begin to get some traction on this - but will it be too late, before the Democrats push us over the edge for the next couple of generations at least.
 
That's good we can agree on these major issues even though our political beliefs differ that much. Also, if you're interested in economics you should check out Peter Schiff. He's running for senate as a republican.

But I gotta say, I believe both parties have been corrupted by these bankers. Although there are still some people who won't let themselves be bought, in both parties.
So the issue is not which party is in the right, but what politicians you can still vote on that aren't bought and paid for, IMO.
 
what is most interesting is how often the person who seems to have such animosity towards the USA is the one most concerned with the country.Same thing here as in
france "we hate those imperialist pigs" but damn we line-up outside starbucks,mcDonalds
and wear oakley and pretend we surf,listen and imulate the Rap music etc etc..." Im more latino than American but find it odd the amor/odio that the world has with the US.
 
indafold said:
what is most interesting is how often the person who seems to have such animosity towards the USA is the one most concerned with the country.Same thing here as in
france "we hate those imperialist pigs" but damn we line-up outside starbucks,mcDonalds
and wear oakley and pretend we surf,listen and imulate the Rap music etc etc..." Im more latino than American but find it odd the amor/odio that the world has with the US.

That's because what happens in the States affects us all. It's not rocket science you know.
 
orwellian said:
That's because what happens in the States affects us all. It's not rocket science you know.

whoa kinda aggresive...chill out just said it was interesting
 
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