The death of the Euro

French jurist said:
Worse than the USSR, 60 years of peace is bullshit... Maybe is it a bit excessive ?
It's such a vast subject, and yes it's far from perfect.

Nothing is perfect, the only benefit the EU brings me is the occasional good law, which parliament should be doing anyway. There are many similarities with the USSR, people just don't want to see it. So we don't have labour camps (yet), but we are heading in a direction worse then the USSR and there is no way citizens can stop it.

I never understand the peace comment either. At the expense of what? The little democracy and freedom we had? Our job security? No thanks. Wars get started by banks and governments, not the people. Why should we suffer because of them?
 
Moonwitch said:
I never understand the peace comment either. At the expense of what?

at the expense of not losing sons, brothers, fathers every fifty year or so for a millenium is an acceptable answer ?
 
Moonwitch said:
Nothing is perfect, the only benefit the EU brings me is the occasional good law, which parliament should be doing anyway. There are many similarities with the USSR, people just don't want to see it. So we don't have labour camps (yet), but we are heading in a direction worse then the USSR and there is no way citizens can stop it.

Please, comparing the EU to the Soviet Union is almost insulting. Which are the similarities you're talking about? I can only think of a couple:

- Neither the USSR nor the EU are democracies, but the latter is a lot more democratic on the National level.

-Both limit freedom of speech (Geert Wilders is on trial as we speak, and people I dislike, like David Irving, have spent years in prison because of what they've written) but it's so far fetched to compare that to the Soviet Union.

-Both engage/d in Social Engineering (new socialist man, and the multicultural baby), but... Europeans can still freely chose to leave the continent!

Moonwitch said:
I never understand the peace comment either. At the expense of what? The little democracy and freedom we had? Our job security? No thanks. Wars get started by banks and governments, not the people. Why should we suffer because of them?

The EU didn't procure peace for 60 years: the Cold War did. Does this latter need any further explanation?
 
French jurist said:
at the expense of not losing sons, brothers, fathers every fifty year or so for a millenium is an acceptable answer ?

Do you really believe that? Isn't it more reasonable to think that after WWII and decolonization, Europe was split half in half, between its two grown-up children: Russia and America? And that Soviet-American relationship was the element that made war between members of each block unthinkable?
 
French jurist said:
Would you prefer the Americans to influence the eastern european countries alone?

The US influence is only military and everyone knows how fickle, unreliable and mendacious the American government is. Eastern Europe should have been fobbed off with associate status -- like Turkey.

I find it great many are joining the EU, where they belong.

No they don't. They have a different history and different culture. The Euuropeans should be divided broadly into three categories: 1) The Nordics (who keep the whole European project ticking) 2) The Mediterranean Europeans, and 3) The Slavic Europeans. They are very different groupings and to have this quasi-mystical and spiritual idea that they are all Europeans and should be in one super-body is daft.
 
French jurist said:
at the expense of not losing sons, brothers, fathers every fifty year or so for a millenium is an acceptable answer ?

But we have?
 
Matt84 said:
Please, comparing the EU to the Soviet Union is almost insulting. Which are the similarities you're talking about? I can only think of a couple:

- Neither the USSR nor the EU are democracies, but the latter is a lot more democratic on the National level.

-Both limit freedom of speech (Geert Wilders is on trial as we speak, and people I dislike, like David Irving, have spent years in prison because of what they've written) but it's so far fetched to compare that to the Soviet Union.

-Both engage/d in Social Engineering (new socialist man, and the multicultural baby), but... Europeans can still freely chose to leave the continent!



The EU didn't procure peace for 60 years: the Cold War did. Does this latter need any further explanation?

How is it insulting? Because you don´t want to feel stupid not being able to see it.

Those three things you listed are pretty big. Just a few... they seem to be working to the same agenda; people have suffered a loss of national identiy; the EU is now officially a federal superstate; the management of the economy and industry; the reliance on NGOs; complete unaccountability to the people; and corruption is rife. At the moment there may be some democracy on a national level, but that is rapidly diminishing.

The EU does procure that it has brought peace to Europe.

And what was up with the Cold War? It was as real as this war of terror.
 
bigbadwolf said:
The US influence is only military and everyone knows how fickle, unreliable and mendacious the American government is. Eastern Europe should have been fobbed off with associate status -- like Turkey.



No they don't. They have a different history and different culture. The Euuropeans should be divided broadly into three categories: 1) The Nordics (who keep the whole European project ticking) 2) The Mediterranean Europeans, and 3) The Slavic Europeans. They are very different groupings and to have this quasi-mystical and spiritual idea that they are all Europeans and should be in one super-body is daft.

I agree with your last comment. What is wrong with being separated? It doesn´t mean we can´t live in peace and with cooperation.
 
bigbadwolf said:
The US influence is only military and everyone knows how fickle, unreliable and mendacious the American government is. Eastern Europe should have been fobbed off with associate status -- like Turkey.



No they don't. They have a different history and different culture. The Euuropeans should be divided broadly into three categories: 1) The Nordics (who keep the whole European project ticking) 2) The Mediterranean Europeans, and 3) The Slavic Europeans. They are very different groupings and to have this quasi-mystical and spiritual idea that they are all Europeans and should be in one super-body is daft.

Would you be so kind as to identify those groups with existing countries?
Which are the Nordic countries that keep the Euro floating? Certainly not Britain or Denmark which have their own monarchic currencies, certainly not Norway which is not even in the Union. On the other side, Europe's best (not biggest but strongest) economy is neither Nordic nor a member: Switzerland!

The core of the EU is the Franco-German axis + Benelux, italy and Austria.

Forget about the EU, don't you like EFTA better?


Moonwitch said:
How is it insulting? Because you don´t want to feel stupid not being able to see it.

Those three things you listed are pretty big. Just a few... they seem to be working to the same agenda; people have suffered a loss of national identiy; the EU is now officially a federal superstate; the management of the economy and industry; the reliance on NGOs; complete unaccountability to the people; and corruption is rife. At the moment there may be some democracy on a national level, but that is rapidly diminishing.

The EU does procure that it has brought peace to Europe.

And what was up with the Cold War? It was as real as this war of terror.

You got me, you might just be right, only that in Europe people can leave and go back as we please. The point about the Cold War is that it kept both rival parties from going into war with each other. If some can say that the EU kept a peaceful Europe for decades, just the same I can say that the Warsaw Pact kept the other half of Eu from doing just the same thing. Point is that this peace thing might have been the bait bureaucrats used to justify the Union.
 
But in Europe, countries can´t go back. The EU is irreversible. The aim is to give EU member states as much freedom as the soviet republics had.

Digressing a little but no parties in the Cold War ever had any intention of going to war. They say you can do more things in five years of war time, then you can in 50 years of peace time. The real agenda behind the cold war was to get the world to change and hell yeah it changed. It changed for the worse.
 
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