The President of Democracy Raul Alfonsin Dies

[sergio]

"It may be true that Alfonsin found it politically difficult to prosecute the torturers however it would seem that he preferred to stay in power as long as possible rather than stand on principle and do what was right. Had he stood firm and done what was right, he would have gone down as a man of integrity who struggled to achieve justice."

Fedec, I believe you misunderstood me regarding the above. My point was not that Alfonsin should have sought glory, rather that he should have done the right thing! By doing the right thing - relentlessly pursuing the torturers, prosecuting them and making sure that they stayed in jail - he might have failed but he would have tried! As a consequence, eventually Alfonsin would have been recognized as a statesman. Instead, he compromised and stayed in power until his inability to deal with the economy forced him to resign. It would be wondferful if there were a few decent politicians who decided to do the right thing, even if it meant not getting reelected. I am afraid, though, that this sort of thinking seldom belongs to the political class.

CABEZAS. I recall that there were many questions regarding Yabran's links to certain high placed people in the government. Isn't this true? Was this issue ever properly investigated? I don't think so. The whole case still seems shrouded in mystery. As for the killers being free, this is characteristic of Argentine justice. When caught, criminals go to jail for a short time and then are released - no matter how vicious the crimes. There is a famous woman who poisoned several people, killed them. She was set free and now walks the streets of BA!

You didn't comment on the Israeli embassy and AMIA bombings. WHY are there so many unanswered questions despite international demands for the truth?

 

[fedecc]

Fedec, I believe you misunderstood me regarding the above. My point was not that Alfonsin should have sought glory, rather that he should have done the right thing! By doing the right thing - relentlessly pursuing the torturers, prosecuting them and making sure that they stayed in jail - he might have failed but he would have tried! As a consequence, eventually Alfonsin would have been recognized as a statesman. Instead, he compromised and stayed in power until his inability to deal with the economy forced him to resign. It would be wondferful if there were a few decent politicians who decided to do the right thing, even if it meant not getting reelected. I am afraid, though, that this sort of thinking seldom belongs to the political class.

But what if the "right thing" would have ment to have another military coup? A stateman has to work in the realm of the possible, you can't have an idealist in power persuing his own crusades. That's when most atrocities occur. In any case, whether his compromising was good or bad doen't change the fact that he did beacuse he though it was good for the country and not because he was a sellout or had other obscure interest, that is more than we can say for our average politicians.

CABEZAS. I recall that there were many questions regarding Yabran's links to certain high placed people in the government. Isn't this true? Was this issue ever properly investigated? I don't think so. The whole case still seems shrouded in mystery. As for the killers being free, this is characteristic of Argentine justice. When caught, criminals go to jail for a short time and then are released - no matter how vicious the crimes.

Yabran was a major business man, he was the owner of a know postal service among other things, so he did probably had connections with the government. The justice said that it was Yabran who order his personal bodyguars "Gregorio Rios" to "punish" Cabezas. Rios gathered a party of 6 people and murdered the journalist. When the justice ordered Yabran to be captured, he killed himself. The killers where condemend to life imprisonment*.

* There is actualy no life imprisonment in Argentina. the maximum penalty is 25 years.

Also, as you may imagine, Argentina's judicial system is fucked up. Trials take forever (as in many years), so most of the people in prision are not actually convicted!! Of course instead of fixing this, our brillant policy makers passed a law that is comonly refered as 2x1. This law states that the time spent in prision without a conviction counts double for the total penalty. So for example if you killed someone, you spent 5 years in prision, then when you actualy get the conviction that is, lets say 10 years, you walk right out beacuse you already spent 5 years without conviction, 5x2=10

Like this one there are a lot of laws that put criminals in the street. So the next time you see a protest about insecurity, try to keep this in mind.

There is a famous woman who poisoned several people, killed them. She was set free and now walks the streets of BA!

Yiya Murano, la envenenadora de Monserrat!! LOL she appears on TV every now and then.

You didn't comment on the Israeli embassy and AMIA bombings. WHY are there so many unanswered questions despite international demands for the truth?

The embassy bombing was the work of the Islamic Jihad, while the AMIA was the work of hezzbolah and backed up by Iran. Both were suicide attack so the terrorist themselves are dead.

In the AMIA case, Argentina asked for the international capture of several iranian agents, but that preety much all it can do, ask. Also the justice was investigating the so called "local conection", this is who helped to fix the ban, and other minor things. But if you want a guilty man, you are not going to find it, you have to look to Teheran, and thats way out of our league, we are not the US.

Also, there are acusations towards our former president Menem, who comes from a muslim family, and supposedly he was somehow involve in the issue, but i don't realy belive this.

 

[2GuysInPM]

http://www.argentinepost.com/2009/04/magazine-cover-highlights-argentinas-crossroads.html

 

[sergio]

Fedec

Your comments regarding Alfonsin are reasonable, though we can only speculate as to what would have happened if Alfonsin had been more insistent that the torturers be punished. Maybe there would have been a coup - I don't know. Would the public have been willing to accept military dictatorship after having returned to democracy? I wasn't here at the time. I'll have to ask some friends who lived through the period.

Yabran was owner of the OCA postal service, right? Incredibly rich and connected to the most powerful people in the country. As you know, there was a lot of speculation at the time that Yabran might not have really died - that he had had plastic surgery and escaped. Probably ridiculous however just how involved he was with members of the political establishment we will probably never know. When the FBI was invited to Argentina to help investigate the Cabezas case the FBI official in charge commented that he had never seen worse police work in his life. I distinctly recall reading that in the paper.

The Argentine court system is exactly as you describe it. The 2x1 law is a perfect example of the amazingly liberal attitude in this country toward criminals. There is, of course, no excuse for trials that take many years to resolve and there is no excuse for letting someone off the hook once found guilty! There seems to be a widespread disdain in Argentina for serious punishment. The most vicious crimes are treated as minor offences. You are quite right that the lack of security has a lot to do with the refusal of the court system to deal with the problem - and the willingness of legislators to pass laws with no bite. By the way, you made a joke out of the "Envenenadora de Monserrat". How many people did this woman kill? I don't suppose the victims wanted to die and I imagine their families were not too happy about it. Now she is a kind of celebrity. She should have been sentenced to life in prison without any possibility of parole. The fact that she is free says a lot about the criminal justice system and the attitude of many people who tolerate this sort of thing.

Have the AMIA and Israeli embassy case been closed? I have had the impression that the Jewish community is not satisfied that all the facts have come out. The big issue, of course, is how the terrorists were ever allowed into the country and who was involved. There is a very serious prolem here of open borders and officials who can be corrupted.

Thanks for your thoughtful input.

 

[gouchobob]

Thanks for the several thoughtful posts on this subject from several contributors.

 

[fedecc]

The Argentine court system is exactly as you describe it. The 2x1 law is a perfect example of the amazingly liberal attitude in this country toward criminals. There is, of course, no excuse for trials that take many years to resolve and there is no excuse for letting someone off the hook once found guilty! There seems to be a widespread disdain in Argentina for serious punishment. The most vicious crimes are treated as minor offences.

Well, this is what the hole "insecurity issue" is all about. For some groups with lots of influence in the government even discussing harder punishments, which are considered normal in most of the world, makes you a rightwing fascist. Usually the argument of the people that think this way is that insecurity is exclusively linked with social exclusion, so untill this is solved (they never say how) there is nothing we should do, because doing something would be unjust. Sadly, this reasoning is shared by government official, congressmen, judges, etc.

you made a joke out of the "Envenenadora de Monserrat". How many people did this woman kill? I don't suppose the victims wanted to die and I imagine their families were not too happy about it. Now she is a kind of celebrity. She should have been sentenced to life in prison without any possibility of parole. The fact that she is free says a lot about the criminal justice system and the attitude of many people who tolerate this sort of thing.

I wasn't laughing at the victims, i just think the hole thing is amusing, in a dark twisted way i admit.Anyway she got the 2x1 treatment and is free.

Another interesting sick case is the Schocklender brothers. Convicted for killing their own parents. One is still in jail while the other, Sergio Schocklender got the 2x1 and is now a lawyer of the "Human Rights" association Madres de Plaza de Mayo, bouncing checks with Hebe de Bonafini all over the place.

Particularly the current government is filled with shady characters like that, welcome to argentina....

Have the AMIA and Israeli embassy case been closed? I have had the impression that the Jewish community is not satisfied that all the facts have come out. The big issue, of course, is how the terrorists were ever allowed into the country and who was involved. There is a very serious prolem here of open borders and officials who can be corrupted.

I don't think it's closed. There is a normal frustation in knowing you can't get the responsible, either because you don't know who they are or you do know and you can't reach them. When 9-11 happened the US went to war with terrorism, we can't do that.

As far as people getting in, well inmigration is another tabu issue. Every talk of securing borders or incresing control are considered righwing things.

 

[tangobob]

I thought this article may interest a few here.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7975788.stm