The state of the construction industry

[Ries]

Just a quick response to one point- of course you can buy real scaffolding here- it just costs more.
I was in a groovy boutique last week, probably in Paseo Alcorta, and the whole interior was done in very high quality, Kee Klamp style scaffolding, with galvanized pipe.
It actually was higher quality than most of the rusty, concrete incrusted, stripped thread scaffolding you see rented on construction sites in the USA.

Lots and lots of things ARE available here, if you look hard enough, like, for instance, decent scaffolding. Whether or not you choose to pay for it, thats your problem.

One thing I do see is that various trades have been considered low class, and so dont pay well, that are absolutely essential to maintaining the 100 year old housing stock in BsAs. If the trades dont pay well enough, nobody really skilled is going to work in them, and they arent going to pay for modern, expensive tools and materials.
Hence, you see a lot of substandard welding, or forging, or sheet metal, just to name three trades I know a lot about.
Of course, the actual tools to do these things right CAN be bought in Argentina, and there are some incredibly skilled blacksmiths, sheet metal guys, and welders here- but they are working on stainless steel chemical plants, not working for 20 pesos an hour for shady contractors.

This is similar in the US, too, of course- you see a lot of very poorly done metal work- and then, a small percentage of really good stuff.

I dont doubt there are a few shops capable of doing very good work on interior parapet gutters here- but they are hard to find, busy, and expensive, just like they would be in any city in north america.

 

[Crema Americana]

My first thought about the lumber was that they don't use it a lot in Argentina, so it doesn't surprise me it's not the best quality. You will pay dearly for something decent.

I think a lot of Argentines are just content with shoddy work because they either don't care, don't know better, or prefer cheap work over quality. Finding a good craftsman isn't easy either, so you often have to settle for what you can find or afford. Or try to do it yourself Do-it-Yourself home projects don't seem to be very popular here... DIY work is about the level of the "tradesmen." (I actually think I could have done a better job on some of the work we've had done using only common sense and a ruler.)

As for customer service, my fiance who is Argentine feels the same. "Nobody wants to work" or "they don't want my business" are common complaints. I could perhaps understand poor customer service after the fact, but before making the sale? It takes a special kind of indifference for that... how do they stay in business? It's very odd how in Argentina it's often the customer that has to chase after the sell.

Hope your home project starts to go more smoothly.... if not at some point just do the Argentine thing and say "zafa" (good enough.)

 

[Fabe]

Thanks for participating in this debate.
I lived here in the '70s. I remeber well when you could see something well made. Somehow its seems to have fallen thru the cracks.
Regarding tools , ever try to buy anything electrical ? nothing is standardized. As far as tools go , I have seen nothing but absolute crap. The marketplace for tools seems to have been saturated by the "seconds" market.
Regarding the parapet gutter:
I researched the crap out of this and finally found a guy. He claimed to be the parapet king - 40 years in the buiss.
Anticipating the potential problems , after asking for his qualifications , in a round about way , I asked him if he was qualified to do work to specifications , regardless of his current work technique. To not be less , he absolutely said he did that kind of work .
I then gave him the spec. I needed thicker than paper sheet metal, sealed joints as opposed to soldered. , things like that. After first triing to talk me out of those specs ( unsuccesfully) , I noticed a general pall that befel him .
He was just unhappy someone " telling him how to do something" I feel that I saved myself from en ulcer by not contracting him.
Another poster wrote a key word - ZAFA . THAT , I feel is at the botom of the work ethic here. - The slide.
I too have some of the backround you mention , I worked 15 years in the defense industry , some more years in the computer industry and the last 10 in the construction industry , every time having to reinvent myself to escape unemployment waves that blew in the States.
The other day , I saw a brad nailer in Easy . It was priced ok . I asked about the price of the brads . "Oh , we dont sell the brads , just the gun ." (!?). Mediocrity, a live for the day philosophy is what is on a daily basis eroding the workforce in this country .

 

[Ries]

I am sure everything you say is true- but I also have visited a few decent ferreteria industriales that sell decent tools.

Personally, I would never buy anything at Easy, just as I try to avoid similar stores in the USA- Home Depot, and Lowes, for example, sell "name brand" tools that are "value engineered" to be noticeably inferior to the seemingly same Milwaukee or Makita tools you would buy at a real industrial supplier in the USA- they look the same on the outside, and cut corners inside, to meet Home Depot's price points.

So- I see similar things every day in the USA- most home hardware stores sell incredibly crappy tools from china, where price is the only consideration, and at the same time, Starrett and Klein and Proto still make and sell excellent industrial quality tools.

In Argentina, it may be harder to find good tools, but they are out there- I bought a very nice Metabo hammer drill I use on my plaster and brick walls, and it is equal quality to the industrial Metabo line in the US or Europe. I had to go to a good ferreteria to buy it (my local is on Salguero just off Santa Fe, and stocks things like cobalt drill bits and swiss files, too) and it cost more than any single drill for sale at Easy, no doubt.

I have not done the research on sheet metal- I actually may, in the future, as I would like to find a good shop to do some of my own work in- but I am sure they are out there, somewhere.

The phenomenon you describe is one that is worldwide, not specific to Argentina- the quality level of most home improvement contractors in the US these days is incredibly low, except in trades where Unions require actual apprenticeships- which, in the US, usually includes the sheet metal trades.
Unfortunately, in Argentina, Unions do a good job of securing holidays and benefits, but not so good at training, it seems. But I kinda doubt the neighborhood sheet metal shop in Once is Union, anyway, although the Portero is.

 

[Fabe]

Reis
I would be interested in knowing the info on that fereteria industrial you know of. Is it a store or a distributor type company ?
Regarding the quality of tools in the states , and hence my pet peeve about what is available here:
Having been in the construction trade in the states I basically lived at lowes and Home Depos, so I feel i have a qualified opinion as to the products .
Here is the diametrically opposed difference I see regarding quality at those places and here:
I still have , and use 2 items I purchased I beleive at HD several years ago . A socket ratchet set and a set of box wrenches.
I paid 20 dollars for each. I also have a set of screw drivers I still use that have not deteriorated although I do admit that I havnt abused them .
You can imagine that paying 20 dollars for these items , at the point of purchase , you automatically think that if you get a few uses out of them , well , you are ahead of the ball.
Like I said , these items have provided me with several years of use.
All the items are made in china.
Here is the difference though, They meet the minimum in quality and durability. What i see here that predominates the market are "SECONDS". The same items that Stateside you would only find in a .99 cent store , you find here as the main items.
The chinese cater to this market and have a large selection of items for sale at a discount. Argentine buissinessmen being what they are , readily import containers full of these items . They are purchased at a discount and when sold , omit their "seconds" origins.
One of the first things I did was to set out to purchase those tools i didnt bring to argentina because of the voltage. I set out to buy the same dewalt chop off saw and the same dewalt sawzall. To my surprise , the sawsall they offered was a model that has not been manufactured by dewalt in years. It had the old socket screw methos of holding the blade. I could not beleive it ! Same thing with the chop off saw , it was a model that was discontinued for years ! These items were at least 100% more expensive than the lates model you can purchase in the states.
Im sure good things can still be found here . Bahco is a good , durable brand. I have a BTA compressor , obviously made in china and sold in the states with an inifity of different badges. This compressor continues to give me great service.
I still cannot understand how a company like Easy will sell a nailer , but not sell the nails it uses (!?!?!?!?)
I feel that what is lacking here is motivation . Those in the buiss of selling care verry little about making a name for themselves as a company that brings in good quality otems. The sell tools , but if they could make money selling buttons , then they would be selling buttons.
One positive thing is a motorised post hole digger i just acquired. Made in China , imported by Lustoff. Has the same 2 stroke my weed whacker has. Its not tooo flimsy , and of not abused , is a great tool . I paid less than 1000 pesos for it.
I purchased a dowen paggio circular saw. terrible engineering. The bladeguard is shaped in such a manner that it will jamm against the wood you are cutting , making it de rigor to slide it back yourself.
Thanks for your input.
Fabe

 

[Ries]

I think part of this may be our standards, and what we are willing to pay.

I am a complete tool nut. My shop includes 400 amps of 3 phase, and most of my tools are definitely what you would call "industrial"- I own several machine tools that cost more than small cars. rows of welders, a cold saw, hydraulic ironworker, 18"x60" metal lathe, milling machine, 4x8 plasma cutting table, rolls, brake, drills, sanders, punches, power hammer and forge- and thats just the metal shop. cabinets of hand tools and measuring tools.
(this is my US shop, of course- in BsAs I live in a departmento, and must make do with much less- and I frequently miss the big shop. my long term plan is to find local shops that will let me work on my projects in them)

So unless its an emergency, I would not buy much of anything at Lowes or Home Depot beyond bags of concrete or light bulbs.

Most of my sockets and wrenches are Proto, with some used Snap On's mixed in.

And I cannot imagine buying Dewalt anything- Bosch is my usual preference, with Milwaukee and some Makita mixed in.

Of course, that means I am used to paying more. When I bought my Metabo, it was one of the most expensive drills in the ferreteria.

In Argentina, there are two kinds of hardware store- industrial, and homeowners. The industrial stores are scattered about, with very few of them in the high rent zones of the tourist crescent- most are more mid city, in Villa Crespo, Flores, and so on. Seems to me there are quite a few on Juan B Justo, past Corrientes.

Places like this-
http://www.ferreteriajm.com.ar/
which I have not been to- carry Bosch, Makita, Dewalt, and others, including good miter saws and circular saws.
these guys carry some better electric tools too-
http://www.mundoherramientas.com.ar...th=21&osCsid=c9ed324a81358c67fc04e8d1fbece9e6
there are lots more of em out there.

If you look here-
http://www.ferreteriayobra.com.ar/resultado_subcategorias.php?pagina=1&idsub=269
you can see ten pages or so of decent quality Makita, Bosch, Skil, Dewalt, and other circular saws, all with blade guards that probably work better than the one you describe. They are out there, just not cheap and at every corner store.
Yes, of course you will pay very high prices for imported tools here- just like any other import, there is a huge tariff on it.

Me, I always consider it worth it to pay for good tools- but I have been making my living using tools since the mid 70's, and I really LIKE a good tool.

There are certain categories that are very difficult to find quality in- I have been researching the current state of Argentine Anvils, for example, and have been unable to find a decent manufacturer- most are ugly, poorly designed maintenance shop anvils, not decent blacksmith tools, which is odd, as Argentina has a very rich tradition of world class blacksmiths.
I have been collecting small jewelry size anvils, as well as novelty anvils with the names of ferreterias and herrieras on them, but have yet to see a good new anvil for sale. Some beautiful european made antiques, of course.

One of my favorite entertainments is always researching the industrial base of anyplace I travel to, and any excuse to track down an obscure tool or piece of hardware keeps me happy for days, taking the subte to oddball neighborhoods, finding who makes what, and how its done here.

 

[Fabe]

MAN what i would give for a lathe ! . There is a fella sellig an entire small machine shop and all the accumulated tooling of a lifetime. for 12000 pesos he is in santa teresita.
Try going to auctions for an anvil , mostly in rural buenos aires. I hear in ranchos there are frequent auctions and also in brandsen.
Boch I like ! Dewalt has always been the tool of the framer . I really never heard of the hammerdrill you mention , where is it made? . The metabo you mention.
I lost all my accumulated machine shop tools when en ex foreman of mine , about 10 years after i left the industry asked me to help him with some tooling . I left the tools there and a week later the place had been taken by the bank .
All my B&S measuring tools , man , everything , its depressing to think about.
I have 2 wonderfull items you might fall in love with that have been part of the infrastructure of the house.
A Otto Deutz Gasmotoren single piston engine dating from like 1902 and a Pyramid brand double piston water pump from 1904. I took them all apart , cleaned thenm , oh , yeah , guess what im going now ? WAITING , waiting to find a place where i can find some parts , waiting for the only dude i know with a machine shop to call me back .. etc. really sad. I have pics in my facebook Fabe Pappa

 

[Ries]

Framing, in the USA, is very different from place to place- different styles of construction, and different tools.
Out here on the west coast, most framers use Skil or Milwaukee worm drives- heavy beasts, for sure. I have been running my Milwaukee worm drive for many years, and am just used to it. I also use some smaller circular saws for specialty stuff- love my Makita 4200 trim saw, with its tiny 4" blade.

Most full time guys I know dont sport much yellow on the jobsite- cordless drills, maybe.

In terms of real high end electric tools, Bosch, Metabo, Fein, Porter Cable for things like routers, and some of the Japanese companies are top of the heap.

Metabo is a german company, founded in 1924, who made one of the first electric hand grinders ever sold. Good stuff. Not all made in Germany anymore, they have factories in a dozen countries. A lot of welders really swear by Metabo grinders.

I do love old machines- I am working my way thru the 5 railroad museums that are just in greater CF, many of which still have machinery. I will be expanding outwards from there, no doubt. I really would love to make it up to Taffi Viejo, outside of Tucuman, where the huge railroad repair shops are still standing, with many giant tools sitting abandoned. There is a small museum, but most of the site is just sitting empty.
http://wwwcronicaferroviaria.blogspot.com/2010/11/tucuman-alumnos-de-la-universidad.html

 

[2GuysInPM]

whatever you do, don't hire these guys for any demo work.

Zafa.... http://youtu.be/4T_zJXAlTKo?t=10s

 

[Fabe]

See ? and here is the thing , if you now go and ask one of those idiots anout their fuckup , they will preface their excuse with " Lo que pasa es que ......" As long as they can make up an escuse on the fly , they are free and clear in their heads.
Great Video ! I passed almost an entire cup of cofee thu my nose