The Use Of The Word, "lynching" In The Media.

[khairyexpat]

Matias:

Appreciate you debating your point of view.

But it sounds extreemly strange.
Argentines poor are the most fortunate luckiest and well socially supported of all poors of any country on earth I know of.
They are not poor.
There is no poor Argentine.
You really haven't seen what poor is?

Robbing an iPhone G5, is not a poor's desperation act .... eating mud in earth quake devastated Santo Domingo, is inhuman desperation act of the poor.

All Argentines (including the so called poor) have the right to

• free schools,
• free health care,
• government family assistance and child support,
• they can even claim the right to public land and live on it free, no rent no luz bills.
• they can legally claim the title of the land they grab for free.
• it's possible to live free in Argentina, if that is all you want.

Where else in the world you get anything even close to all this?

If you want an iPhone and consumerism, ... another story ... you work for it.

These are not acts of hungry poor grabbing a bread, these are acts of violence with arms, motorcycles, gangs ...

If I don't have an Epson Home Cinema Theatre Projector, does not mean I'm poor, and it's OK for me to go rob one ... since I don't have one to loose.

It's so sad you saying 35% Argentines are poor below poverty line if don't have iPhone ... so extreem ... hard to believe.

Please, set me straight ... tell me I'm wrong ...

 

[Matiasba]

Why then, Matías, do the poor of Buenos Aires not form a unified army of motochorros stalking the streets of Recoleta?

You have tons of piquetes or tomas like the Indoamericano everyday!

Besides, its very fragmented, lots of poor have a middle class past, with education with values, lots, the majority, of chorros are impulsed by drugs, also, the situation socially is getting better in these past ten years, see plan progresar, AUH, etc,

there are different kind of poors, the ones that rob are excluded from everything, they have nothing, thats why I said they are social victims.

 

[ajoknoblauch]

Matias:

Appreciate you debating your point of view.

What else can you ask for to make a living. If you want an iPhone, you work for it, you don't just grab it.

In fairness, to get an iPhone in Argentina, working is not enough. You either have to fly to Miami or be a high government official.

 

[gusgutier]

<p>

I meant social victims.

Not always. Making a personality profile to those in prison, you can find, in short, 3 kind of people : A) the " socia victims", aka those who has no other resources, not only material but also intelectual and emotional, to live an honest life. B ) "smart guys" who understand that can have a fast track living to the expense of giles working class C) mentally ill affected.
To a class A), there is a chance of rehab. B ) ends career of crime after suffering jail several times C) You ´ll always have a problem in social integration..
I read Foucault´s "Discipline & Punish " ("Vigilar y castigar" ) too, and I agree that each society defines its own offenders, so take in account that comunities with little property conflicts, eg a small tribe, has criminals too.
It was enlightning to me, a young urban boy in military service, that even everyone had almost the same, there was robbery. There was always someone who didn´t find a sock and has no better idea than stole to a mate. Punishment executed ( and believe me, not a light one) and some repeats the behaviour.
I understand your good will, but we must not put in the same bag in any sense to nobody. All the poor are not thieves and not the same, the rich ones are not all garcas and not the same, etc, etc.

 

[Matiasba]

Matias:

Appreciate you debating your point of view.

But it sounds extreemly strange.
Argentines poor are the most fortunate luckiest and well socially supported of all poors of any country on earth I know of.
Thet are really not poor.
There is no poor Argentine.
You really haven't seen what poor is?

Robbing an iPhone G5, is not a poor's desperation act .... eating mud in earth quake devastated Santo Domingo, is inhuman desperation act of the poor.

All Argentines (including the so called poor) have the right to

• free schools,
• health care,
• government family assistance,
• they can even claim the right to public land and live there free, no rent no luz bills.

What else can you ask for to make a living. If you want an iPhone, you work for it, you don't just grab it.

If I don't have an Epson Home Cinema Theatre Projector, does not mean I'm poor, and it's OK for me to go rob one ... since I don't have one to loose.

The argentine poverty is rare and has lots of bonds, historically, with the state. Thats why we have huge social plans now (NOTHING COMPARED TO EUROPEAN STATES! - I know that Spain up to 2008 had a lot of social plans heavier than us). Poverty is relatively under control, we re not in 2002 or 2003 now.
It is a poverty with mobility, actually. You can see the Directv anthens in the villas, for instance. There is some kind of porgress to these people. Thats why we need a big state, of we have some retired state, argentine society explodes, informal job enters, poverty, unemployment, etc. Health and education fortunately is free in this country, I dont see a problem with that. Some (not all!) public hospitals are very good. The same with school, although I think I wont send my kids if I have to a public school, at least not to primaria. But then for high school you have the Pellegrini or the Nacional Buenos Aires, and then the UBA, totally free. I like it to be porous, open to everyone.

Generally the ones that rob are young and on drugs. They dont are afrais of being killed by the police. As I said their life value nothing, so if they get that from society, they already have the no, so why dont go and get stuff violently? they have nothing to loose.
They recieve nothing but stigmatization.


Just trying to think the reasons why they robbed, The Tv and the media in general will try to sell you that they are bad guys, while CEOs and maffious politicians, or corrupted bussinessmen are the ones we must admire.

 

[Redpossum]

I agreed with what CFK said, somebody who is the waste of these societies, someone whos actual life value is 2 pesos, someone who is treated every day in every moment as the worst people, that dont have ANYTHING, not a house, not a bed to sleep, they hardly eat every day, they beg in the streets, they are condemned to a miserable life, by whom? by all of us.
Those people have to live and deal with the advertising, with the publicity that says that you are what you have.
Put them on school, give them a decent roof, and or a decent job, not talking of middle class, just working class life, so they stop being excluded and pointed by everyone as the last human beings, and this problems will be solved.
They rob because they have nothing, they have nothing to lose, they rob because they are bombed by this society of objects, of things, of merchandise, and they are excluded of this consumerism.
There are lots of people that rob million dollars from the states, white collar thieves, CEOs, bankers, people who can make trillions dollars in one afternoon by doing click in the mouse, and they can put pressure on the state, taking out the money destined to socail plans to allow these people have a decent life.
There are mafias with the banking system, the financial system, the international debt system, trillions of dollars destined to make weapons to kill people, and this poor man that robs because has nothing is the victimist?

These poor people is excluded of the society, they dont have a job or a house or valuable things. They are treated as their life value 2 pesos, why would we expect from them to treat us with respect? how would we expect to be treated by them if we treat them like that?

Then how do they afford the motorcycle and the gas to make it go?

Just asking...

to be more specific, where you and I part ways on this issue is with your assumption that these offenses are being committed by the descamisados. I don't consider that a valid assumption. Other than that, I mostly agree with you.

 

[Rich One]

Actually there has been Only One Lynching recently , the one in Rosario, a mob beating is not a Lynching. Lynching is a KKK hanging.
We are experiencing here a Burn Baby Burn syndrome

 

[khairyexpat]

The argentine poverty is rare and has lots of bonds, historically, with the state. Thats why we have huge social plans now (NOTHING COMPARED TO EUROPEAN STATES! - I know that Spain up to 2008 had a lot of social plans heavier than us). Poverty is relatively under control, we re not in 2002 or 2003 now.
It is a poverty with mobility, actually. You can see the Directv anthens in the villas, for instance. There is some kind of porgress to these people. Thats why we need a big state, of we have some retired state, argentine society explodes, informal job enters, poverty, unemployment, etc. Health and education fortunately is free in this country, I dont see a problem with that. Some (not all!) public hospitals are very good. The same with school, although I think I wont send my kids if I have to a public school, at least not to primaria. But then for high school you have the Pellegrini or the Nacional Buenos Aires, and then the UBA, totally free. I like it to be porous, open to everyone.

Generally the ones that rob are young and on drugs. They dont are afrais of being killed by the police. As I said their life value nothing, so if they get that from society, they already have the no, so why dont go and get stuff violently? they have nothing to loose.
They recieve nothing but stigmatization.


Just trying to think the reasons why they robbed, The Tv and the media in general will try to sell you that they are bad guys, while CEOs and maffious politicians, or corrupted bussinessmen are the ones we must admire.

I repect your point of view, even though I found it extreemly strange and can't disagree with you more.

May be you're just being provocative. .... I'll leave at that.

 

[Matiasba]

It was enlightning to me, a young urban boy in military service, that even everyone had almost the same, there was robbery.

If everyone had their needs covered, why should robbery exist? what for? you would not have the necesity!!

 

[Matiasba]

I really don't understand what you are saying.

May be you're just being provocative. .... I'll leave at that.

I was saying that poverty in Argentina is heavy influenced by the kind of State we have, poverty in Arg depends a lot of the government, if its a big state or not. Saying that we dont have poverty, as you said, that there are no poor people in Argentina, is way more provocative than what I said. We have 30% or 25% of Argentine population under the poverty line.