The Use Of The Word, "lynching" In The Media.

[Rich One]

The Presidenta stated that the media is promoting this issue of lynching and stigmatizing the poor young moto chorros, Hence Matias must support this position . Bajada de Linea

 

[GS_Dirtboy]

this site is embarrassingly derechista.

That is because you've been brainwashed to think that thievery is somehow a sickness of the poor and downtrodden.

That argument is false because 1) there are billions of examples of poor people who do not resort to stealing, who work long hours to have enough money to give their family the basics, 2) there are millions of rich who do steal, who have no economic reason to take from someone else, who have the opportunity to make sufficient money in honorable lines of work but choose a criminal path anyway.

Your turn.

 

[la_guachita]

If you had a global view you'd realize that the ladrones are the actual victims.

My head is spinning! That lack of personal responsibility to be decent, regardless of circumstances, is at the heart of the problem.

I've known since they were little a gang of now young adults that hang out on my street. These are all kids that live in gov. funded pensiones or casas tomadas. One of them just went off for air force training, one took out his ear plugs and just landed a job as a cadete, two of them, brothers, chose a different path and are chorros (I heard them talking about how they robbed a backpack from a foreigner). The two chorros are the one's whose mom yell's at them from the balcony to come home for dinner, they aren't starving.

Additionally the nearby bakery gives free bread to anyone who comes in asking for it at the end of the day. I worked at a restaurant here and we gave any street kid who was hungry a meal. As said earlier, Argentina has a lot of social programs. Painting cellphone/laptap/purse thieves as victims in Argentina is so misguided.

Do you think the people robbing TV's in December during the looting were doing it to put food on the table or were they just opportunists?

 

[nelaursen]

That is because you've been brainwashed to think that thievery is somehow a sickness of the poor and downtrodden.

That argument is false because 1) there are billions of examples of poor people who do not resort to stealing, who work long hours to have enough money to give their family the basics, 2) there are millions of rich who do steal, who have no economic reason to take from someone else, who have the opportunity to make sufficient money in honorable lines of work but choose a criminal path anyway.

Your turn.

You're right. I am very, very brainwashed. Thanks for pointing that out. Now I know. Glad you have a good grasp of socioeconomic driving factors.
Cheers

 

[ajoknoblauch]

You're right. I am very, very brainwashed. Thanks for pointing that out. Now I know. Glad you have a good grasp of socioeconomic driving factors.
Cheers

No, you merely lack the capacity for the simplest critical thinking.

 

[khairyexpat]

My head is spinning! That lack of personal responsibility to be decent, regardless of circumstances, is at the heart of the problem.

Me too. ... I'm at a total loss, baffled and bewildered.

With all due respect la_guachita, I would and DO UNDERSTAND CIRCUMSTANCES. Absolutely.
I showed a sever inhuman example of circumstances, when someone sleeps hungry out in the cold to be found frozen to death in the morning.


Only I need someone to point it out to me and explain it in plain simple English (No academic mumbo jumbo ... please), where are the circumstances here in the following:

The argentine poverty is rare and has lots of bonds, historically, with the state. Thats why we have huge social plans now (NOTHING COMPARED TO EUROPEAN STATES! - I know that Spain up to 2008 had a lot of social plans heavier than us). Poverty is relatively under control, we re not in 2002 or 2003 now.
It is a poverty with mobility, actually. You can see the Directv anthens in the villas, for instance. There is some kind of porgress to these people. Thats why we need a big state, of we have some retired state, argentine society explodes, informal job enters, poverty, unemployment, etc. Health and education fortunately is free in this country, I dont see a problem with that. Some (not all!) public hospitals are very good. The same with school, although I think I wont send my kids if I have to a public school, at least not to primaria. But then for high school you have the Pellegrini or the Nacional Buenos Aires, and then the UBA, totally free. I like it to be porous, open to everyone.

Generally the ones that rob are young and on drugs. They dont are afrais of being killed by the police. As I said their life value nothing, so if they get that from society, they already have the no, so why dont go and get stuff violently? they have nothing to loose.
They recieve nothing but stigmatization.


Just trying to think the reasons why they robbed, The Tv and the media in general will try to sell you that they are bad guys, while CEOs and maffious politicians, or corrupted bussinessmen are the ones we must admire.

I see nothing but good human dignified circumstances.
ALL needs covered. Housing, Health care, Schools, Child Support, Gov. Assistance, ... everything ... including DirectTV .....
Argentines are most fortunate for having such a generous social system, and I always empathized with that.

All needs are covered except for the needs of the young on drugs.

I'm afflicted, dizzy and distraught, ...
1. Why does a helpless woman (or any one) have to be subjected to acts of violence in the process of loosing her purse, her phone, her necklace, ... for the needs of the young on drugs
2. Why does't the gov. create programs to address and help cover the needs of the young on drugs.
3. Why is it OK to ingnore the problem as if it doesn't exist? The young on drugs enters Police station, shortly leaves with nothing changed, not for him, not for the helpless old lady .. nobody wins.
4. Ain't it cruel to accept that the young on drugs has nothing to loose so it OK for him (but not for me ... I have a house and a job I am afraid to loose)
5. The young on drugs needs professional help, .... not iPhone or moto
6.

I UNDERSTAND CIRCUMSTANCES AND NEEDS TO BE COVERED.
Argentina's good fortunes and UNIQUE position allows it to achieve that.

Once the basic needs are covered, The rest is a competition, fierce, wild, relenless, tough, dog eats dog, ...
iPhones, motos, jobs at Microsoft and Google ..... are not needs to be covered ... those are fights to be faught .. work like a slave for 70 years.
I'm 70 years old, ... I don't have iPhone, never had one, can't afford it, .... never crossed my mind that my need for iPhone needs to be covered ...

Please , .. someone explain to me in plain simple English .... I'm a simple man ... what am I missing ... why can't I see your point of view ... do you have something in mind different from what you write ???

Please help me understand what you are saying, .... I WANT TO UNDERSTAND YOU.

 

[GS_Dirtboy]

You're right. I am very, very brainwashed. Thanks for pointing that out. Now I know. Glad you have a good grasp of socioeconomic driving factors.
Cheers

Thank you. I just wish that you (and Matias) had a better grasp of the difference between correlation vs. causation. Almost all of the time when I am running I am wearing shorts and a t-shirt. I also sweat. Using the "driving factors" theory we can easily conclude that wearing shorts and a t-shirt and/or sweating causes running.

 

[jp]

there are different kind of poors, the ones that rob are excluded from everything, they have nothing, thats why I said they are social victims.

They have motorbikes apparently.

[Edit]

To be fair Matias I see what you're getting, but you can't explain crime purely in terms of poverty and exclusion. Crime happens at all levels of the economic spectrum. There will always be people with motivation and opportunity to take what doesn't belong to them.

 

[khairyexpat]

They have motorbikes apparently.

[Edit]

To be fair Matias I see what you're getting, but you can't explain crime purely in terms of poverty and exclusion. Crime happens at all levels of the economic spectrum. There will always be people with motivation and opportunity to take what doesn't belong to them.

I'm glad I found someone who can see what I can't see.

My post is #56.
Appreciate few moments of your time, to analyse & responde to each of my questions.
Help me see what you see.
I'll listen.

 

[Jaredberryman]

Poverty can be an often confusing term. There are people that have nothing to eat, and thus they steal to get what they need. That does indeed happen in Argentina sometimes. It's tempting to snatch a purse or cell phone and disappear into the villa to sell it in order to have some cash to purchase food if you haven't eaten all day. I have seen people in this desperate state, so sometimes it does happen. However, from where I come from, you can easily get food without worrying about having to steal. In the U.S., sometimes we call poverty what for many people in this country is considered basically wealthy.

There are those people that literally have to find creative solutions to get food. There are those people here and everywhere. But in Capital and my own country, they are a smaller group among the "poor".

Mostly what we are talking about when we talk about poverty are people who have less than the next echelon. That is to say, due to a lack of education, dignity, drugs, whatever, these people are unable to advance out of their lifestyle and always struggle financially. They might struggle financially in a terrible way, but they have satellite tv, a cell phone, and are overweight. In many cases, the problem has more to do with the person's mentality than anything else, although sometimes it can simply be a difficult situation, such as a disabled or deceased spouse that was the main breadwinner.

These people can tend to blame their situation, which is due to extraneous circumstances or their own bad choices, on others. The perfect scapegoats are the people that have made it to the next echelon, or better yet, the ones that belong to an even further away echelon. Thus, in the mind of thieves that are "in poverty", it's the rich's fault they are poor (which in some ways might have some legitimacy), therefore I am embittered and hate them. It is just that I rob them. I have not way of getting to the next echelon, and that is unfair. Screw society that has made these rules. Why should I work and strive to get my food? This is the thinking of those criminals in the second class of people that come from poverty.

I liked how I watched on TV how a thief on calle Florida was caught, and talked to the cameras. "I only rob rich people!" he exclaimed. This is the thinking of poor thieves, that what they do is completely just. Never mind that the rich person might have obtained his wealth in a just way. Never mind that the rich person is talented and generous towards the poor. The rich person is the criminal to the thief. This is the way most thieves in Argentina think.

But, we should also remember that sometimes people commit these crimes because of their stomachs. The temptation is high to grab that cell phone and run off when you haven't eaten all day. I have met people like this, and they really do exist. So on the one hand, some of what Matias says can be true. If as a society we have plenty of food, and there is no way for that person to easily get access to some food, then we shouldn't be surprised at such behavior. Sometimes it is not so easy to get food in Buenos Aires, or the person might not have knowledge of how to do that.

On the other hand, the majority of thieves in this country do not fall into this category. They rob with impunity because they hate those who have more possessions than them. This will never change if you give them more possessions. Actually, it might make the problem worse. Poverty can often be an illusion in many ways simply due to the fact that the poor have a different mentality and do not realize that the answers might lie within themselves (which is why education is so important in order to destroy poverty). Sometimes people do need a helping hand. Other times, they are fools.

The problems of poverty are complex, and we just can't simply be naive enough to think that if we somehow change social conditions that crime will change. Poverty is a problem of the human heart, of greed, of power, of laziness, of apathy. Until enough people's hearts change, nothing will change (among both poor and rich). Thieves are hardly innocent.