HDM, the expat invasion began after the devaluation. BA was discovered as a cheap, interesting destination. I was here through the Menem years (one peso-one dollar). It was a relatively expensive city and there were far, far fewer toutists and few expats. You mentioned French restaurants. Yes, of course there were French restaurants established by local (not expat) people long before the expat invasion. This city is really far bigger than the 3 million the TIMES reporter cites. What matters is metropolitan BA, not just the legal city limits. The metro area is more like 13 million. Big enough to have supported a French restaurant ot two without the help of a recent immigrant!
U.S..Citizens - why did you move to Buenos Aires?
- Thread starter Dudester
- Start date
Martin (above) writes that there are app. 50K Americans living in BAires. May one assume there are at least that many from the UK? Maybe an equal number from European countries? May one also assume that the majority of expats live within the area of the city proper, and not so much in the greater population of greater BAires? There are a lot of assumptions here, since I do not have any accurate data available. But following the assumptions, there would be something like 150,000 expats among the 3 or 4 million residents of the city. (I know, Sergio, but I'm not referring to "greater" BAires, but just the part of the city where most expats probably live.) What do all these expats do? Furthermore, how many people actively participate in expat forums like this one? I have no idea, but guess, after reading this one for a couple of months, the number would be less than 50. I bring this up in order to pose a question that has been on my mind since I started reading this forum. How widespread and how deep is the dissatisfaction with expat life in Buenos Aires? One would think, reading this forum, that very few expats are happy with their lot in BAires, regret having come there, and are thinking of moving on. Does this simply reflect the attitudes of a typical forum participant, or is this a reflection of widespread expat reality and feeling?
I ask because my wife and I have accepted work that will take us to Buenos Aires in a few months, so we're going regardless. I suppose we could still back out, but that isn't likely. I would just like to get a handle on the reality "on the ground." Neither of us have ever been to BAires, or South America, for that matter. Although my wife is quite good in Spanish and I am passable. We are not naive about overseas life, having lived 80% of the past 20 years outside the USA, including Slovakia, South Africa, Germany, and Singapore. But Latin America is the new world for us. Therefore, the curiosity reflected in the questions I've posed.
The fundamental question, then, is what I read on this forum an accurate (or at least fairly accurate) depiction of expat life and attitudes in Buenos Aires?
I ask because my wife and I have accepted work that will take us to Buenos Aires in a few months, so we're going regardless. I suppose we could still back out, but that isn't likely. I would just like to get a handle on the reality "on the ground." Neither of us have ever been to BAires, or South America, for that matter. Although my wife is quite good in Spanish and I am passable. We are not naive about overseas life, having lived 80% of the past 20 years outside the USA, including Slovakia, South Africa, Germany, and Singapore. But Latin America is the new world for us. Therefore, the curiosity reflected in the questions I've posed.
The fundamental question, then, is what I read on this forum an accurate (or at least fairly accurate) depiction of expat life and attitudes in Buenos Aires?
Fishface: This does seem more reasonable to me. Then this is just a typical situation where the only people you here from are the ones who aren't happy. The rest are just going about their lives. It is comforting to see that Buenos Aires is just like every other place, and not some special horror. I look forward to see what it's like.
kre8ivelyXposed
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HDM, I have been a Flight Attendant for American Airlines for 23 years and fly to Argentina every week from Miami and sometimes New York. I have traveled and been all over the world. I bought a small apartment in Palermo Nuevo last year for my personal use when working (on layover) as well as bimonthly visits of about one week. I have been flying trips to Argentina (as a Flt. Attendant) since the 90's. Admittedly, I have the "best of both worlds" due to my travel access. Argentina has seen many changes and will continue to see many more.
I find many people on this forum hoping and desiring to retain a certain "priviliged lifestyle" vis a vis their dollars, euros, or pounds. Not a bad thing entirely, but sometimes a bit "Old World" in thinking for me. We (Europeans and North Americans) are Empire and we deserve the best! This is a myth that is and will continue to break down. Many come to BA thinking that Argentina is or will be something other than what it really is......a country constantly "in flux". The Menem years of the 90's were an illusion; now the world due to the internet and "globalization" is much smaller. Changes are taking place rapidly and slowly in Argentina. Yes, you can read that last sentence as a paradox and much of life is just that.
I still think Argentina and specifically BA has a very vibrant culture and life. The grit and seediness of BA give it an edge that the NY Times was trying to allude to in the Sunday article;however, being the Travel section and interested in promotion, the paper got caught up in a bit too much glamour and glitz versus reality. I personally like all of the contradictions and juxtapositions of the culture as that is where creativity and new life lies. But, it can be sometimes stagnant as well. Ah.......more paradox!
Americans and others have a tendency to "mythologize" the "other" in foreign cultures thinking that there is a dream world out there that is going to rescue them from the harshness of the modern world where they currently live. Bottom Line: wherever you go; there you are. That has been my experience after 23 years flying for an international airline. If you come to BA, expect to see treasures and landmines. But don't come naively and sign real estate deals or attempt to open a business without doing some serious research. Most importantly, ask yourself what your real intentions are and then ask yourself if you are "kidding yourself" with fantasy or can you find serious evidence that can justify your expectations and intentions.
I find many people on this forum hoping and desiring to retain a certain "priviliged lifestyle" vis a vis their dollars, euros, or pounds. Not a bad thing entirely, but sometimes a bit "Old World" in thinking for me. We (Europeans and North Americans) are Empire and we deserve the best! This is a myth that is and will continue to break down. Many come to BA thinking that Argentina is or will be something other than what it really is......a country constantly "in flux". The Menem years of the 90's were an illusion; now the world due to the internet and "globalization" is much smaller. Changes are taking place rapidly and slowly in Argentina. Yes, you can read that last sentence as a paradox and much of life is just that.
I still think Argentina and specifically BA has a very vibrant culture and life. The grit and seediness of BA give it an edge that the NY Times was trying to allude to in the Sunday article;however, being the Travel section and interested in promotion, the paper got caught up in a bit too much glamour and glitz versus reality. I personally like all of the contradictions and juxtapositions of the culture as that is where creativity and new life lies. But, it can be sometimes stagnant as well. Ah.......more paradox!
Americans and others have a tendency to "mythologize" the "other" in foreign cultures thinking that there is a dream world out there that is going to rescue them from the harshness of the modern world where they currently live. Bottom Line: wherever you go; there you are. That has been my experience after 23 years flying for an international airline. If you come to BA, expect to see treasures and landmines. But don't come naively and sign real estate deals or attempt to open a business without doing some serious research. Most importantly, ask yourself what your real intentions are and then ask yourself if you are "kidding yourself" with fantasy or can you find serious evidence that can justify your expectations and intentions.
Very well said, "kre8ivelyXposed"!
Quoting "kre8ivelyXposed":
". . . . Americans and others have a tendency to 'mythologize' the 'other' in foreign cultures thinking that there is a dream world out there that is going to rescue them from the harshness of the modern world where they currently live. Bottom Line: wherever you go[, ] there you are. . . ."
As a middle-aged man who's spent half his life outside his native land, I couldn't agree more. The naïveté of many who come to Argentina -- from the United States, from Europe, from elsewhere in South America -- rises to gross ignorance of human nature. I wish for their sakes, and ours, that they'd do more to mature before coming here -- or moving anywhere: that would help us all.
Quoting "kre8ivelyXposed":
". . . . Americans and others have a tendency to 'mythologize' the 'other' in foreign cultures thinking that there is a dream world out there that is going to rescue them from the harshness of the modern world where they currently live. Bottom Line: wherever you go[, ] there you are. . . ."
As a middle-aged man who's spent half his life outside his native land, I couldn't agree more. The naïveté of many who come to Argentina -- from the United States, from Europe, from elsewhere in South America -- rises to gross ignorance of human nature. I wish for their sakes, and ours, that they'd do more to mature before coming here -- or moving anywhere: that would help us all.
Yes, complex nickname, we've noticed the "let's make this over in our image" phenomena in every city where we've lived. Sort of like marriage, in a way. I love you, baby, but I'll love you even more when you change to suit my fantasies of you.
We're on our way to BA in a few months regardless, and are looking forward to it. Our housing is provided, but I understand that it will be in some part of Palermo. I'm happy with a "clean, well-lighted" cafe, interesting walks, good food and wine, and, if there's a bonus to ask for, pretty girls in their summer dresses.
Your comment was quite well-written. No, I did not mean to add... for a flight attendant.
I'll look for you on our ride south.
We're on our way to BA in a few months regardless, and are looking forward to it. Our housing is provided, but I understand that it will be in some part of Palermo. I'm happy with a "clean, well-lighted" cafe, interesting walks, good food and wine, and, if there's a bonus to ask for, pretty girls in their summer dresses.
Your comment was quite well-written. No, I did not mean to add... for a flight attendant.
I'll look for you on our ride south.
HDM, If you have a job lined up with a decent salary and you are provided good accommodation you will probably be quite happy in BA. There is always a honeymoon period and that period is likely to last longer if you do not have to worry about making a living. I lived through the Menem years (I disagree that it was an "illusion" - an oft repeated phrase these days. The ecomomy was no more an illusion than the current one with its artificially maintained exchange rate and dependence on high commodity rate). In the Menem years the peso had real value, there was virtually no inflation and a general feeling of stability. If you were working here and paid in pesos you could earn a respectable salary in international terms. The devaluation was a jolt for me as it was for most Argentines. The adjustment has been difficult, made harder by galloping inflation. I never believed that Argentina would remain as stable as it was for some time under Menem however I never imagined that the transition could be so terrible and incompetently managed (if you were here when bank accounts were frozen, dollar accounts transformed to devalued pesos etc you know what I am talking about). Expats who came soon after the devaluation often came with naive ideas about a low cost of living that could not be maintained. And, yes, there HAS been an expat invasion. I can tell you that hearing English on the streets was something very unusual in Menem's time, even in Recoleta! As for where expats live, before the devaluation they were concentrated in Zona Norte - places like La Lucila, Martinez etc. That's where most expat families seem to live nowadays, as they did then. People sent out with contracts are always given housing and many perks. If they have children they almost always choose Zona Norte. The new mostly younger expat is a new breed, often intested in urban pioneering and in a kind of urban lifestyle that eludes most of the executive types who come here not so much by choice bus because they are obligated to do so. In any event, HDM, a lot of the complaining on this website seems to stem from frustration at the instability brought on by very high inflation and the difficulty of making a living. Eliminate these factors and most expats would probably be reasonably happy here.
Thank you.
We fully expect to enjoy living in Buenos Aires for a few years, like we have enjoyed every place we've lived. I am of the opinion that one carries his or her attitude about places (and everything else) as personal baggage, and the place isn't going to change the attitude brought to it.
We have vagabond careers. The longest continuous period of time we've lived anywhere since 1986 is 4 years. So we get lots of opportunity to test that theory.
We fully expect to enjoy living in Buenos Aires for a few years, like we have enjoyed every place we've lived. I am of the opinion that one carries his or her attitude about places (and everything else) as personal baggage, and the place isn't going to change the attitude brought to it.
We have vagabond careers. The longest continuous period of time we've lived anywhere since 1986 is 4 years. So we get lots of opportunity to test that theory.
Ries
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Okay, I am not a permanent resident- I make my living in the US, and I have a place in BA, and I spend time there when I can-
But I am very amused when I hear that " lack of honesty and customer service/satisfaction in every sense" and " it is not cheap and I beleive that it is as dear as any US city" said about Buenos Aires.
I cant imagine what US cities these writers have been in lately, but they certainly are in an entirely different universe than the Buenos Aires and USA that I live in.
As far as lack of honesty and customer service- I have found the exact opposite to be true- the USA is far, far worse.
I travel a lot, around the world and thruout the USA- and I have NEVER been anywhere where a cab driver will ROUND DOWN THE FARE because they dont want to deal with small change. This is unheard of, in Tokyo or Milan, NYC or any city in the USA. Taxi drivers in Buenos Aires are educated, engaging, almost uniformly good humored, well dressed, and as I said, far from cheating me, usually try to charge me LESS than the meter reads. When tipped a peso or two, they are always cheerful and act as if they didnt expect it.
Contrast that with cab drivers in the USA, anywhere, who are surly, silent, usually dont speak english (try russian, or somali, or urdu, if you want to communicate). They will often take the long way around, and since an average in city fare in most US cities is $20 US, that adds up fast. They will hit you with an extra 5 bucks per bag for luggage, they will demand a 20% tip, and then still treat you like a criminal.
I just finished doing a major remodel of the kitchen and bath of my apartment in Buenos Aires- and I have done a lot of work in the architecture and construction world all around the US, and to compare the two is night and day. Every single person and business I dealt with in BA was friendly, fair, and honest. I met ONE grumpy guy- and that was in weeks of dealing all day every day with wholesalers, retailers, craftsmen, delivery people, and so on. In the USA, you constantly run into jerks at most businesses, who are rude and short, uninformative, and no fun to deal with. In BA, I found almost exclusively small, family owned businesses with knowledgeable, experienced people.
In fact, this is a constant theme, and one of the reasons I love BA.
The USA has lost virtually all its locally owned businesses, replaced by faceless huge corporations that care about nothing but profit. Virtually the entire manufacturing base of the USA is gone, leaving us with cheap, but incredibly shoddy chinese imports in almost every category.
Or, with ridiculously expensive "name brand" items made by the same chinese teenagers as the cheap crap.
In Argentina, on the other hand, there is a wide range of locally manufactured items, made by people making a living wage- or at least a lot closer to one than the dollar a day they pay teenage girls in china to make lower quality stuff.
Its true, Nike, or IPods, or Louis Vuitton are all expensive in Argentina, due to high tariffs. But much higher quality local items are very reasonable. Show me another city in the first world where you can have custom made shoes made to fit for 300 pesos. Yeah, sure, in Guatemala, you can buy a pair of tire tread Huaraches for 5 bucks, but in London or New York, custom made mens shoes start at $400 to $600, and can easily triple from there. Locally made designer clothes in BA are a great buy. Virtually everything for my kitchen, from grifferia to sinks to stoves to tile to great italian high design modern chairs, were made in Argentina, and cost 1/3 or less what the same thing would cost in the USA.
In London right now, one way trip on a bus is 2 pounds. Thats 12 pesos. Here in Seattle, its 6 pesos. So BA is 1/6th the price. Similar disparities in price for a beer in a bar, or a haircut, or a delivery fee on a fridge. The rents in Seattle now are right around $800 to $1000 for a one bedroom apartment. Most young people here work 2 or 3 jobs to afford to share a small flat. Everything except electronics and a few imported consumer goods are cheaper, by far, in BA.
My construction workers had more pride in their work, honesty and integrity than I see in the USA. Plus, they always made lunch every day, and constantly tried to feed me, or give me mate. That kind of thing is just unimaginable in the US. And they were pretty good cooks, too.
Cities in the USA are much more dangerous, full of hustlers, drug addicts, thousands of mentally ill homeless people wandering the streets, and mind dead television watching bored and boring slackjawed "consumers".
My kids go to school with people who do not have a single book in their houses- this is common in the US. Contrast that with the high level of education, literacy, and general erudition in BA. With the bookstores on every corner.
If what you are looking for is cheapness, above all else, for sure, there are cheaper places. But if you appreciate the culture, the people, the incredible architecture, the amazing antique furniture, the poetry, the literature, the music, the food, the level of history and sophistication of BA, well, pound for pound, I think it is by far the cheapest city in its class in the world.
And even if it wasnt, cheap, that is, I would still find it a fascinating and wonderful place. I love BA for what it is, and the fact that I can afford an apartment there is a wonderful bonus, a sad fact of economic turmoil- not something I take for granted, or expect as a right, but a gift I enjoy and marvel at daily. Ba is fully as great, in many ways, as other cities around the world where an apartment in a neighborhood like Palermo would cost a cool million dollars. Or more.
But really- if its so bad, why do you live here?
But I am very amused when I hear that " lack of honesty and customer service/satisfaction in every sense" and " it is not cheap and I beleive that it is as dear as any US city" said about Buenos Aires.
I cant imagine what US cities these writers have been in lately, but they certainly are in an entirely different universe than the Buenos Aires and USA that I live in.
As far as lack of honesty and customer service- I have found the exact opposite to be true- the USA is far, far worse.
I travel a lot, around the world and thruout the USA- and I have NEVER been anywhere where a cab driver will ROUND DOWN THE FARE because they dont want to deal with small change. This is unheard of, in Tokyo or Milan, NYC or any city in the USA. Taxi drivers in Buenos Aires are educated, engaging, almost uniformly good humored, well dressed, and as I said, far from cheating me, usually try to charge me LESS than the meter reads. When tipped a peso or two, they are always cheerful and act as if they didnt expect it.
Contrast that with cab drivers in the USA, anywhere, who are surly, silent, usually dont speak english (try russian, or somali, or urdu, if you want to communicate). They will often take the long way around, and since an average in city fare in most US cities is $20 US, that adds up fast. They will hit you with an extra 5 bucks per bag for luggage, they will demand a 20% tip, and then still treat you like a criminal.
I just finished doing a major remodel of the kitchen and bath of my apartment in Buenos Aires- and I have done a lot of work in the architecture and construction world all around the US, and to compare the two is night and day. Every single person and business I dealt with in BA was friendly, fair, and honest. I met ONE grumpy guy- and that was in weeks of dealing all day every day with wholesalers, retailers, craftsmen, delivery people, and so on. In the USA, you constantly run into jerks at most businesses, who are rude and short, uninformative, and no fun to deal with. In BA, I found almost exclusively small, family owned businesses with knowledgeable, experienced people.
In fact, this is a constant theme, and one of the reasons I love BA.
The USA has lost virtually all its locally owned businesses, replaced by faceless huge corporations that care about nothing but profit. Virtually the entire manufacturing base of the USA is gone, leaving us with cheap, but incredibly shoddy chinese imports in almost every category.
Or, with ridiculously expensive "name brand" items made by the same chinese teenagers as the cheap crap.
In Argentina, on the other hand, there is a wide range of locally manufactured items, made by people making a living wage- or at least a lot closer to one than the dollar a day they pay teenage girls in china to make lower quality stuff.
Its true, Nike, or IPods, or Louis Vuitton are all expensive in Argentina, due to high tariffs. But much higher quality local items are very reasonable. Show me another city in the first world where you can have custom made shoes made to fit for 300 pesos. Yeah, sure, in Guatemala, you can buy a pair of tire tread Huaraches for 5 bucks, but in London or New York, custom made mens shoes start at $400 to $600, and can easily triple from there. Locally made designer clothes in BA are a great buy. Virtually everything for my kitchen, from grifferia to sinks to stoves to tile to great italian high design modern chairs, were made in Argentina, and cost 1/3 or less what the same thing would cost in the USA.
In London right now, one way trip on a bus is 2 pounds. Thats 12 pesos. Here in Seattle, its 6 pesos. So BA is 1/6th the price. Similar disparities in price for a beer in a bar, or a haircut, or a delivery fee on a fridge. The rents in Seattle now are right around $800 to $1000 for a one bedroom apartment. Most young people here work 2 or 3 jobs to afford to share a small flat. Everything except electronics and a few imported consumer goods are cheaper, by far, in BA.
My construction workers had more pride in their work, honesty and integrity than I see in the USA. Plus, they always made lunch every day, and constantly tried to feed me, or give me mate. That kind of thing is just unimaginable in the US. And they were pretty good cooks, too.
Cities in the USA are much more dangerous, full of hustlers, drug addicts, thousands of mentally ill homeless people wandering the streets, and mind dead television watching bored and boring slackjawed "consumers".
My kids go to school with people who do not have a single book in their houses- this is common in the US. Contrast that with the high level of education, literacy, and general erudition in BA. With the bookstores on every corner.
If what you are looking for is cheapness, above all else, for sure, there are cheaper places. But if you appreciate the culture, the people, the incredible architecture, the amazing antique furniture, the poetry, the literature, the music, the food, the level of history and sophistication of BA, well, pound for pound, I think it is by far the cheapest city in its class in the world.
And even if it wasnt, cheap, that is, I would still find it a fascinating and wonderful place. I love BA for what it is, and the fact that I can afford an apartment there is a wonderful bonus, a sad fact of economic turmoil- not something I take for granted, or expect as a right, but a gift I enjoy and marvel at daily. Ba is fully as great, in many ways, as other cities around the world where an apartment in a neighborhood like Palermo would cost a cool million dollars. Or more.
But really- if its so bad, why do you live here?
Very interesting, Ries, and thanks for the local information. I'm not in BA and have never been there, so I take your word for it. But your comparisons to the USA were interesting. $800 to $1000 for a 1-bedroom in Seattle! That's virtually free. We are currently in Washington, DC. We live in Georgetown. A 1-BR here would start at $2000 a month, if it was a dump. Anything decent under $3000 a month is considered to be a steal. Lunch in a decent moderate restaurant here, without wine, would be at least $40. A glass of wine will add $8 to $10. My wife and I celebrated our anniversary at a very good fish restaurant in Georgetown, and the bill was $188, not including tip. So yes, we are really looking forward to life in Buenos Aires. All complaints are relative.
