Vaccines offer hope amid new wave in Argentina

Ceviche

Registered
It was pretty horrible last year in Arg. But to a certain extent, not heavily enforced like Peru and Chile.

however, Brazil was the best place to be last year in South America. It seemed as if nothing had happened. It was like living in a parallel universe.
 

antipodean

Registered
I mostly agree with your other comments, by the way. Argentina doesn't have a resilient economy, but while you might consider that it chose health over the economy, I don't think there was any choice to make.
The problem is that Argentina did not actually end up choosing either - it chose politics. And it keeps choosing politics.
The result? Argentina is still at the bottom of the pile of the Lowly Institute ratings, as it is at the bottom of the pile in the Bloomberg ratings.
Even today we see this with the school debarcle. Still no hard evidence to show that schools lead to this situation as both CABA (with schools) and Provincia (without schools) are in the same situation despite the governments assuring us that "everything" measure they take is for "health".

A lazy or inept politician who can't employ their regular tricks to stay popular will always choose to make a show of things using "easy" targets - school kids are easier than inconveniencing "popular" people who are their bread and butter out in the conurbano (who still flock to crowded marketplaces and pack public transport often without any masks or control at all.) We would have probably seen the exact opposite if it were the previous party trying not to inconvenience its middle class bread and butter in the ciudad - either way, the same old and tired tactics and never ending foregivness/ short memories of voters are predicable as they have been in this country for decades now and never with any real result to show for it when you pause to look at the bigger picture.

(PS FYI the DNU rules at the time were to remain on the same block as the dog or only go within I think it was 400m... these people may or may not have been in other neighbourhoods.)
 

FrankPintor

Registered
It was pretty horrible last year in Arg. But to a certain extent, not heavily enforced like Peru and Chile.

however, Brazil was the best place to be last year in South America. It seemed as if nothing had happened. It was like living in a parallel universe.
About Brazil, YMMV... More than one Brazilian work colleague of mine has lost a parent or a family member to COVID, or had them in ICU. Being in Brazil has always been like living on a different planet, if you're lucky.
 

Jimbob

Registered
The problem is that Argentina did not actually end up choosing either - it chose politics. And it keeps choosing politics.
The result? Argentina is still at the bottom of the pile of the Lowly Institute ratings, as it is at the bottom of the pile in the Bloomberg ratings.
Even today we see this with the school debarcle. Still no hard evidence to show that schools lead to this situation as both CABA (with schools) and Provincia (without schools) are in the same situation despite the governments assuring us that "everything" measure they take is for "health".

A lazy or inept politician who can't employ their regular tricks to stay popular will always choose to make a show of things using "easy" targets - school kids are easier than inconveniencing "popular" people who are their bread and butter out in the conurbano (who still flock to crowded marketplaces and pack public transport often without any masks or control at all.) We would have probably seen the exact opposite if it were the previous party trying not to inconvenience its middle class bread and butter in the ciudad - either way, the same old and tired tactics and never ending foregivness/ short memories of voters are predicable as they have been in this country for decades now and never with any real result to show for it when you pause to look at the bigger picture.

(PS FYI the DNU rules at the time were to remain on the same block as the dog or only go within I think it was 400m... these people may or may not have been in other neighbourhoods.)
They have shown over here in the UK that having schools open has limited effect on spread of the virus and the benefits far exceed taking these kids away from more education. The government have made a right pigs ear of this whole pandemic and I'm not surprised that they are now being met with opposition to their decisions.
 

FrankPintor

Registered
The problem is that Argentina did not actually end up choosing either - it chose politics. And it keeps choosing politics.
This.

It always does, right and left, government and opposition, and it's bloody disgusting.

About the schools... I see these numbers about things that can't be measured (kids probably don't show symptoms, so why would they show up in statistics?) or tracked (no track and trace, so who knows where the infections came from).

All I know is, in my GF's CPI (kindergarden) 6 out of 14 staff have caught COVID since mid-February. At least 3 of the staff appear to have caught COVID from kids, either their own, or of from the CPI. The owner of the CPI has a second one, shut down because of infections among the kitchen staff. This does not look like 0.71% (the number that was bandied around recently) to me, and if anyone else with experience as a parent or teacher would like to comment that would be great.
 

Alpinista

Registered
You're mixing up (I suppose deliberately) the terms shutdown, standstill, impossible to travel, none of which equate to lockown. And yes, I was here all of last year. Nobody, least of all me, is saying the last 12-13 months were easy, but we were not ever locked down. You obviously missed where I mentioned where strict and extended lockdowns have been in place, I'll repeat this one for you: in Chile, in phase 1, where outside of an early-morning "exercise" slot people are not allowed to set foot outside their doors without permission (check here: https://www.gob.cl/pasoapaso/, just FYI I didn't see mention of kids, pets, or frustrated people-in-law). That is a lockdown. Please do everyone a favour and check the definition of lockdown before pushing your false narrative again.
I said Argentina "had one of the world's hardest and longest lockdowns". The other day I saw an article in infobae comparing the stringency of the lockdown measures comparing Argentina with Spain (source). I now checked the data (from the University of Oxford comparing the measures of all countries; https://www.bsg.ox.ac.uk/research/research-projects/covid-19-government-response-tracker#data) and put them together in Excel.

Here is the overview of the overall Oxford Stringency Index by month (with selected countries):

1619630845111.png

Stringency is defined as: "OxCGRT collects publicly available information on 20 indicators of government responses. Eight of the policy indicators (C1-C8) record information on containment and closure policies, such as school closures and restrictions in movement. Four of the indicators (E1-E4) record economic policies, such as income support to citizens or provision of foreign aid. Eight of the indicators (H1-H8) record health system policies such as the COVID-19 testing regime, emergency investments into healthcare and most recently, vaccination policies."

If I only look the containment and closure policies (C1-C8), the picture is as follows:

1619630804381.png

If we look at the overall stringency index, Argentina is pretty much at the top of the table. If we look only at the containment and closure policies applied, then we see that until September 2020 Argentina was one of the strictest countries (topped only by Venezuela and Colombia). Then as of October it got reversed (basically because Argentina went into summer mode and the majority of the other countries into winter). What is probably safe to say that it will be again change again with the majority of the European countries and the other major western countries more advanced with their vaccine programs and also with the seasonality.

Why you are implying that I deliberately mixing it up I do not know.
 

FrankPintor

Registered
Why you are implying that I deliberately mixing it up I do not know.
Because you are. lockdown is lockdown:

"A lockdown is a restriction policy for people or community to stay where they are, usually due to specific risks to themselves or to others if they can move and interact freely. The term "stay-at-home" or "shelter-in-place" is often used for lockdowns that affect an area, rather than specific locations".

As in: you can't go out anymore. Never happened here, and I'm writing this from Buenos Aires, as I've done from the moment I became a member of the forum here.

I get your Oxford graphics, I am only an engineer and I have no ambition to dispute Oxford University statistics. They're very informative, though based ( I think) on government statistics, otherwise there is no way Venezuela would be top of the pile. FYI my people-in-law are in Venezuela, I get near-daily reports on how things are going there. In any case, thanks for sharing.
 

Dougie

Registered
Not shocking that government competence is higher in Singapore, Israel, Japan than Argentina, Brazil, and Iran.
 

Alpinista

Registered
Because you are. lockdown is lockdown:

"A lockdown is a restriction policy for people or community to stay where they are, usually due to specific risks to themselves or to others if they can move and interact freely. The term "stay-at-home" or "shelter-in-place" is often used for lockdowns that affect an area, rather than specific locations".

As in: you can't go out anymore. Never happened here, and I'm writing this from Buenos Aires, as I've done from the moment I became a member of the forum here.

I get your Oxford graphics, I am only an engineer and I have no ambition to dispute Oxford University statistics. They're very informative, though based ( I think) on government statistics, otherwise there is no way Venezuela would be top of the pile. FYI my people-in-law are in Venezuela, I get near-daily reports on how things are going there. In any case, thanks for sharing.
Well, I am neither an English native speaker nor a Spanish native speaker. What I understood is that the broader term in Spanish "cuarentena" is used to describe "containment and closure" policies. I have rarely ever heard the equivalent term in English "quarantine", but almost always I read / hear about "lockdown" and "lockdown measures". So I thought they (english speakers) use lockdown in the Spanish sense of "cuarentena". If I am mistaken, then I will write next time Argentina had one of hardest and longest containment and closure policies implemented ... ;)

BTW: the C1-C8 criteria (containment and closure policies) above are:
  • School closing
  • Workplace closing
  • Cancel public events
  • Restrictions on gatherings
  • Close public transport
  • Stay at home requirements
  • Restrictions on internal movement
  • International travel controls
 
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