Venezuela: Condones Para Pocos

[steveinbsas]

if you're so against socialism why did you come to a country that provides things like socialist healthcare?

Healthcare in Argentina is "provided" by both the government and the private (aka "capitalist") sector.

If the level (quality) of government provided (aka "socialist") healthcare was anywhere near the quality of healthcare that is provided by the private sector, the later would not exist.

Not all Argentines want to have to get up at six in the morning and wait in line (for hours), hoping to make an appointment to see a doctor the next day (that's how it works where I live). Most (if not all) private hospitals have much better (and newer) equipment than the public ones.

While were on the subject of socialist healthcare, it should be noted that the Argentine government does not provide free healthcare for all of it's citizens or inhabitants.

Even those with modest incomes are expected to pay something (at least at the public hospital in the town closest to me).

I am not an advocate of socialism and "socialist healthcare" played no part whatsoever in my decision to come to or stay in Argentina.I bought private insurance in Argentina when my travel insurance expired in 2006 and I have been 100% satisfied with it..

PS: Pensador does not live in Argentina and I find it interesting that two individuals who are not expats in Argentina thus far have been the major participants in this thread.

 

[Matiasba]

If the level (quality) of government provided (aka "socialist") healthcare was anywhere near the quality of healthcare that is provided by the private sector

I dont want to polemize, I think private healthcare overall is better than the public, but sometimes, from time to time, public healthcare is better than any private. It depends a lot of the hospital where you go, but for example, The Hospital de Clinicas de Buenos Aires, has the better doctors in town (including the private), in fact, the same doctors than then go and occupy a very high status in a private clinic. The best eye clinic of the city (by far!!) with the best doctors, etc, is Santa Lucia that is public.
It gives a lot of prestige to a docctor to work in public hospitals, there are some that are like gems, like Hospital de Clinicas.
So, its not the same some hospitals from Conurbano than some importants from the city. Fernandez, Rivadavia, Hospital de Niños, they are all good, with at least the same level of doctors as the best private clinics.

 

[Matt84]

Not all Argentines want to have to get up at six in the morning and wait in line (for hours), hoping to make an appointment to see a doctor the next day

I dont want to polemize, I think private healthcare overall is better than the public, but sometimes, from time to time, public healthcare is better than any private. It depends a lot of the hospital where you go, but for example, The Hospital de Clinicas de Buenos Aires, has the better doctors in town (including the private), in fact, the same doctors than then go and occupy a very high status in a private clinic.

You are both right, but it's even worse than you both describe, as far as I know.
Southern Provincia de Buenos Aires is not an overpopulated place (I believe that's why Steve chose it). In Conurbano where most of the Argentine people live, hospitals are understaffed and underequipped and they live in a permanent state of near-shut down much like the police lives in a perpetual state of war.
this is why people wake up even earlier in the morning and come to capital to ask for mercy at the fancy public, prestigious, pride of the nation hospitals like the ones Matias listed. but no avail since the doctors will prioritize the friends of their cousins over the general population (and who can blame them, they have to prioritize some way. the "Democratic" (I just call it fair) alternative would be to take a number and wait for your turn, but then it would be just as provincia.
Well connected, wealthy Argentines and even Expats take advantage of the prestigious hospitals in Capital, but if you really have money and power, like the former president, you go to places like los arcos.
I believe Matias doesn't realize how well connected he is and how those connections distort his world-view.
Having some normal "middle class" (lol) connections in Argentina is more valuable than money, particularly if that money is ARS pesos. So he thinks since he doesn't have too much money he is in the same situation as the 20 million poor devils that perpetuate their misery for a choripan.
Steve might see things with rosy glasses since the Southern portion of Argentina is much nicer and civilized than the rest.
In Santiago del Estero, Chaco, etc, public health-care means being used as a guinea pig for pharmaceutical experimentation.

 

[Matiasba]

I am not so well conected, I just use private healthcare.
What I was saying is that you just cant change the fact that the same doctors that earn a good amount of money for working for a private clinic, then go and do the exact same thing for free, charging zero pesos, even gaining more prestige. Totally irrational. Those are the facts that nobody, thankfully, cant change. I mean, they tried, be sure about that, but nobody could. The fact is that public healthcare is still very important in this country. Not for turnos, etc, but for surgery, for some complex surgery, public hospitals are as good as private.

 

[ajoknoblauch]

Scandinavian "socialism" is in fact Social Democracy. Even in Sweden large monopolies exist, private companies exist and thrive. What the Scandinavians have been successful in doing in using resources to develop social infrastructure, taxing and weath sharing. That has come under some strain due to immigration and market conditions and I believe there is in fact a centre right govt in power in Sweden.

Venezuela has nothing to do with this version of social democracy where human rights are valued and judicial independence is fundamental. Maduro is a thug, locking up the opposition without the need to process them through the judiciary.

I would feel ashamed to support a system of democracy, you would be OK Matias if Macri for example was locked up for a year without the prospect of a fair trial? If Lousteau was dragged out of his house by an armed commando unit without a warrant for his arrest and imprisoned by presidential decree? All sounds pretty dictatorial to me.

Stop using outdated figures. You are referencing the UN report which judged Chavez' progress up to the period of 2011. 4 years ago!

In 2012 to 2013 the UN stated that poverty in Venezuela increased from 25 to 32 %....then it got worse again.

Poverty in Venezuelan in 2014 hit 48.4% of households, thus exceeding the figures reported in recent years, according to a social survey disclosed on Thursday by the three most notorious universities of the country.The survey compiled by UCAB (Andrés Bello University), UCV (Central University of Venezuela), and USB (Simón Bolívar University) shows that the Venezuelan economic crisis, dominated by galloping inflation, hit most severely the most vulnerable sectors of the country last year, AP reported.Based on the figures of the National Statistics Institute, households living in poverty amounted to 27.3% in the second half of 2013, versus 47% one year later. According to another survey conducted back in 1998, households living in poverty totaled 45%.

No Statistics for violent deaths in Venezuela have been issued by the govt since 2005, an NGO using figures presented by various universities puts that figure at 25000 for 2014, but that's a statistical model. I'd be pretty concerned living there that no one is interested in publishing crime statisitcs.

There is consensus in Scandinavian politics. There is no consensus in Argentine politics (or Venezuelan or even US politics, for that matter).

 

[Matt84]

There is consensus in Scandinavian politics. There is no consensus in Argentine politics (or Venezuelan or even US politics, for that matter).

Notice Japan is not considered a Welfare State, or a model one, but their politics (nationally and within companies too I believe) are decided by consensus.

Milton Friedman postulated that a Welfare State can only work within an ethnically homogeneous society (a big family) which is not the case of any of the New World countries, certainly not Venezuela or Argentina (perhaps it could be the case in Paraguay which ironically has the opposite system)

 

[ajoknoblauch]

Notice Japan is not considered a Welfare State, or a model one, but their politics (nationally and within companies too I believe) are decided by consensus.

Milton Friedman postulated that a Welfare State can only work within an ethnically homogeneous society (a big family) which is not the case of any of the New World countries, certainly not Venezuela or Argentina (perhaps it could be the case in Paraguay which ironically has the opposite system)

Actually, the British welfare state works pretty well, despite all the Tories' efforts to trash it.

 

[Matt84]

Actually, the British welfare state works pretty well, despite all the Tories' efforts to trash it.

alright, but you can still notice how Scotland, if independent, would have continue further down (or up) the Welfare path.
The point is that Scotland is more homogeneous than England (even though it was the cities that voted yes)

 

[Idois]

I dont know, but if some government as drastic as is Chavez/Maduro gets elected over and over and over during the past 17 years, winning every election you can have, making deep changes in society, maybe, just maybe, there is something good being done by them. You have to justify the enormous support they have in votes, explaining without the "they are all ignorant" cliche.

Being elected over and over and over during the past 17 years is quite easily explained using basic social psychology and a few other indicators from the human development index.