Wages have fallen 20% since 2018, worst drop in the region

[SlowWalker]

And in Canada the professors get their salary which is for teaching and research. They also make money from consulting.

LuckyLuke shared the average transfer that will have the category of Sueldo.
Objectively, that is the average value. The value of these transfers are also what is being paid AFTER taxes have been withheld. So the actual salary is higher.
The average after tax is effectively a range of 0.9-1.7M per salary. If one has 2 jobs, they would be receiving two of those transders. A security guard I read is making 1.6M/month for their 12h shifts.
As LuckyLuke said, some people may have 2 jobs since many might only be 5-7 hrs per shift. I know a guy that does programming and renovations, and he also works in a kitchen. A server I know also runs his own kiosko during the day. Other servers may get there 300-500k from the restaurant as a wage based on their 7 hr shifts, and they will also earn 10% (propinas) or less after sharing with kitchen staff.
Professionals charge pretty good here. Sure it can be cheaper than elsewhere, but when you consider workloads over the course of a month they bill very well.
Trades some can be cheap, and others like to charge you the cost of materials in labour. So for a days work it can range from 80k to 300k or more. Some quicker jobs can easily be 40-150k.
Maybe not in BA, but in other parts of the country, people can make 100-300k in profit a day selling paripollos (bbq spatchcock chickens and empanadas). Commonly done on Friday-Sundays. I would be surprised if there weren't people running kitchens out of their homes where they sell prepackaged meals like the rest of the world.
Barbers are charging how much and how many hair cuts do they perform?
Podologists that will have a day fully booked charge 30k/visit (1hr) where I am. So that would be around 240k for the single day. They will do this 1 day a month at 1 location. They offer appointments either at your home, their home (and I think other clinics) throughout the rest of the month.

Anecdotally, there will always be some that earn high, and others that earn less. If you look on other forums online you will see questions and responses about wages and offers in BA or other parts of the country.
The data LuckyLuke presented is objective and average (not median). I have shared a source.
Some people won't share their real wage, others may share incorrect data depending on who they are talking to (likely biassing a lower estimate).

You haven't actually provided sourced data to suggest that the 500-750k or less is the average salary from an reputable source.

 

[carride]

I would suggest Neuquén is more like Nigeria, or any other petro-state, with all that implies (exaggerated costs and salaries, inadequate infrastructure, lack of housing, and so on).

This is most likely far from true. Yes some growing pains, but I doubt it is extreme as a petro-state. I believe most of the benefits of the profits realized from the petro commodities go up to the federal government to support the nacion. If there is any risk to experience Dutch Disease (again), it will be the entire country, not just the province. Hopefully there are benefits from other strong agriculture export and tourism sectors. Encouraged to read that LATAM started flying direct from Neuquén to Santiago again, allowing a better than EZE connection to the world.

 

[FrankPintor]

This is most likely far from true. Yes some growing pains, but I doubt it is extreme as a petro-state. I believe most of the benefits of the profits realized from the petro commodities go up to the federal government to support the nacion. If there is any risk to experience Dutch Disease (again), it will be the entire country, not just the province. Hopefully there are benefits from other strong agriculture export and tourism sectors. Encouraged to read that LATAM started flying direct from Neuquén to Santiago again, allowing a better than EZE connection to the world.

Well, OK, Neuquen is not a petro-state. But from @LuckyLuke's descriptions, it sure ticks several of the boxes. Maybe a petro-island like, say Lagos, or Luanda, or Malabo, with an impoverished hinterland. Now that our esteemed president has decided that Europe is going to the dogs, maybe we need to look to Africa for inspiration.

We'll see what happens with the money. The agro sector is sure to play Russian roulette (like every year) with the government when it comes to selling the harvest. The tourism sector (despite Scioli's antics) is a net negative still, I believe. and LATAM have been flying from smaller airports like Bariloche to Santiago for some time. Which is fine for Chileans, but if you want tourism from North America or Europe, you won't be getting A350s or B777s in those airports anytime soon, you're stuck with Ezeiza anyway.

Before I'm called out on it, I've never been to Neuquen, nor to any petro-states, other than Venezuela, which provides different lessons.

 

[carride]

LATAM have been flying from smaller airports like Bariloche to Santiago for some time. Which is fine for Chileans, but if you want tourism from North America or Europe, you won't be getting A350s or B777s in those airports anytime soon, you're stuck with Ezeiza anyway.

LATAM only resumed service SCL to BRC Bariloche in the past year or two. Plus it only operates during the summer months. Cordoba and even Mendoza had pauses in service when LATAM Argentina airlines permanently closed down in 2020. So it took some years for the LATAM Chile to take over the old routes. NQN had only been for a few years before that. The connection though Santiago to any of those Argentina cities is about bringing worldwide traffic via that SCL connection as a much better option than connection with EZE. That is my preferred route if traveling NYC or LAX or MAD to BRC or NQN or MDZ

 

[SlowWalker]

Well, OK, Neuquen is not a petro-state. But from @LuckyLuke's descriptions, it sure ticks several of the boxes. Maybe a petro-island like, say Lagos, or Luanda, or Malabo, with an impoverished hinterland. Now that our esteemed president has decided that Europe is going to the dogs, maybe we need to look to Africa for inspiration.

We'll see what happens with the money. The agro sector is sure to play Russian roulette (like every year) with the government when it comes to selling the harvest. The tourism sector (despite Scioli's antics) is a net negative still, I believe. and LATAM have been flying from smaller airports like Bariloche to Santiago for some time. Which is fine for Chileans, but if you want tourism from North America or Europe, you won't be getting A350s or B777s in those airports anytime soon, you're stuck with Ezeiza anyway.

Before I'm called out on it, I've never been to Neuquen, nor to any petro-states, other than Venezuela, which provides different lessons.

I don't know why you think of it as a petro island/state.

Countries are made up of various areas many times their own local industry.

In the US, Texas has a large O+G industry and ranching, now tech and some others are starting to move in because of state taxes. In Montana it is ranching, in Detroit it was auto, Pittsburgh was steel but over the last 20+ years has changed to biomedical and others, Iowa is crops, pork, cattle. California has tech, entertainment, tourism, agriculture.
In Canada, Alberta is very much oil and gas country and cattle. Saskatchewan is potash and crops, Ontario has a bit of everything (mining, finance, tourism, auto, general industry etc), the maritime was mainly fishing previously with some mining, oil and gas etc.

Every area will be impacted differently by the ever changing domestic and global economies.

In Argentina, there are huge amounts of kioscos. This is unnecessary. There are many people doing very well operating from home. Yes some stores are going out of business, but they also don't add much value. There is way more sales being done on Mercado Libre than in the past, and you have many people selling goods out of their homes, or supplementing their local business with more national sales.

I think Argentina had a record crop. The main issue now is the detection of GMO in two soy meal shipments to the Netherlands. Argentina is claiming false positives (Article Here - Bloomberg article Argentinian shipments to Netherlands).

Many parts of the country are doing well outside of BA and some are doing very well in BA. This is why the election in October went the way it did.

 

[FrankPintor]

Many parts of the country are doing well outside of BA and some are doing very well in BA. This is why the election in October went the way it did.

You were doing sort of ok, maybe wobbling a bit, but not too bad until this last sentence when you went off the rails. We need to be clear about this: the election in October was bought for Milei by his Daddy Warbucks, the Orange Man. USD 20 billion, plus the prospect of more from private finance. Only a small part of the USD 20B was used (and the private financiers said, "hell, no"), but the scale of the potential intervention, on a shock and awe scale, would have made even George Soros think twice. The election was bought and paid for. Fin, as they say here.

I don't know why you think of it as a petro island/state.

Countries are made up of various areas many times their own local industry.

In the US, Texas has a large O+G industry and ranching, now tech and some others are starting to move in because of state taxes. In Montana it is ranching, in Detroit it was auto, Pittsburgh was steel but over the last 20+ years has changed to biomedical and others, Iowa is crops, pork, cattle. California has tech, entertainment, tourism, agriculture.
In Canada, Alberta is very much oil and gas country and cattle. Saskatchewan is potash and crops, Ontario has a bit of everything (mining, finance, tourism, auto, general industry etc), the maritime was mainly fishing previously with some mining, oil and gas etc.

Petro-states tend to be dependent on one single resource. Maybe I'm exaggerating by describing Neuquén as the new Nigeria, not a petro-state, of course, but certainly a petro-town, or a petro-province. Are you aware of any other major industries, or natural resources, that Neuquén might possess? Lovely mountains, especially in autumn, good hiking for sure, and some nice ski slopes, but let's be serious.

Argentina has so much more. It shouldn't be reduced to a mere exporter of rocks, sludge, and grain. I have been amazed at the breadth and depth of Argentine industry, and I will repeat, the only thing similar I've seen is the German "Mittelstand". (And yes, I lived in Germany for quite some time). So many SME's (PYME's in Spanish), with so much expertise, so much knowledge, that Milei wants to destroy. And yes, he does. No question.

How many LatAm countries make nuclear reactors? Fighter jets? Research, develop, and manufacture their own COVID vaccines? I want my ARVAC. This is just an anecdote, but some years back I was working remotely from Chile, and I needed a laboratory power supply. 0-30V, really simple stuff... there was one, single shop in all of Santiago, Casa Royal, that could supply me. That is the reality with petro / copper states. Nothing is developed there. That's what Milei wants for us.

Contrast that (yes, another anecdote) with when I started hearing some not very nice noises from my car's gearbox. There were several gearbox places within a 30 min drive that would be able to deal with an Aisin 6-speed automatic with dual-clutch transmission. I dare you to try that anywhere else in Latin America (except Brazil). And that's what I value so much about living here. And, again, it's what Milei hates and wants to destroy.

Any concerns I may have expressed about the USD exchange rate are because of this. I can handle an unfavourable exchange rate. I don't like it, but it was like this when I came here in 2017, I enjoyed the biblical 7 fat years, and I made hay while the sun shone, got a plot of ground, built a house... so if I have to deal with a few lean years I'm still ok. My concern, and I will shout this until I'm hoarse, is that the country's industrial and manufacturing backbone is being willfully destroyed. So that a twit and a scammer can move fast and take things. Don't you dare patronize me when I post about well established, very competent, local manufacturers going bust (or drastically downsizing). This is real.

I think Argentina had a record crop. The main issue now is the detection of GMO in two soy meal shipments to the Netherlands. Argentina is claiming false positives (Article Here - Bloomberg article Argentinian shipments to Netherlands).

Yes Argentina had a record crop. I think it's deeply unfortunate that the twit in power will claim this as his success, when, in fact, he had nothing to do with it. I do hope that Argentina is not using GMO (I have no idea if this is the case, I vaguely remember shipments being turned back from China too). In any case, the agricultural sector ("La Rural") is likely to drive a very hard bargain before liquidating its produce.

Don't disrespect me by posting some AI slop. Thank you.

 

[SlowWalker]

This might be a 2 part reply due to size restrictions.

You were doing sort of ok, maybe wobbling a bit, but not too bad until this last sentence when you went off the rails. We need to be clear about this: the election in October was bought for Milei by his Daddy Warbucks, the Orange Man. USD 20 billion, plus the prospect of more from private finance. Only a small part of the USD 20B was used (and the private financiers said, "hell, no"), but the scale of the potential intervention, on a shock and awe scale, would have made even George Soros think twice. The election was bought and paid for. Fin, as they say here.

The election was not bought for because of the intervention. Outside of BA LLA and PRO have support, and in the election they had more than expected from BA. The intervention was both announced and predictable based on the rules that were set with the IMF loan of maintaining the bands. The hit the ceiling three times. Unfortunately, its probably the average Argentinians who thought they would "fight the fed" and lost. Only $2.5B of the $20B was drawn and has been repaid. The private banks opened a $3B repo credit facility. I don't think I would equate this to Soros (and by extension Besente who worked for him then) level.

By having the exchange jump the way it did, which again right after the election dropped back down, froze the economy for 3-4 months, and froze the credit market that was starting again due to the high exchange rates imposed during this.

Again now there was just an article in Bloomberg (Article Link - Day After Milei) about how interest rates for bonds due before and after the next election. If Argentina wants to return to the cycle then I think they will be on their own. This really is the best chance they have.

Petro-states tend to be dependent on one single resource. Maybe I'm exaggerating by describing Neuquén as the new Nigeria, not a petro-state, of course, but certainly a petro-town, or a petro-province. Are you aware of any other major industries, or natural resources, that Neuquén might possess? Lovely mountains, especially in autumn, good hiking for sure, and some nice ski slopes, but let's be serious.

Argentina has so much more. It shouldn't be reduced to a mere exporter of rocks, sludge, and grain. I have been amazed at the breadth and depth of Argentine industry, and I will repeat, the only thing similar I've seen is the German "Mittelstand". (And yes, I lived in Germany for quite some time). So many SME's (PYME's in Spanish), with so much expertise, so much knowledge, that Milei wants to destroy. And yes, he does. No question.

Argentina is a vast country with different regions, climates, etc. This is similar to other countries. Why is it that they can export resources and agriculture but Argentina shouldn't? These industries provide investment, jobs (direct and indirect), support the currency and fund other infrastructure and general government budgets. Why should they not be allowed, but supporting some factory to make a higher priced version of something that can be bought for much cheaper elsewhere is better? Why should Argentinians be reliant on resources from every other country when they have it under them?

USA - 13M bpd Oil (Texas/Alaska/etc), NG (Texas), Crops (Midwest), Pork (Midwest), Cattle (Mid-west, Montana, etc), Gold (Nevada/Alaska), Copper (Utah, Arizona, Nevada), Silver (Alaska, Idaho, Nevada), Auto (Detroit), Dairy (Wisconsin)
Canada - 6 Mpg Oil (Alberta), NG (BC/Alberta), Cattle (Alberta), Pulp and Paper (Quebec/BC), Crops (Saskatchewan), Autos (Windsor-Toronto), Fishing (Maritimes), Dairy (Throughout)
Australia - Iron Ore (WA), Coal (WLD), Cattle (QLD/NT), Crops (Throughout), Gold (WA,NSW,VIC), other mines (Throughout).

The economies throughout countries are not equal everywhere. Each region will have its own and be sensitive to changes in the market that effect it. By producing more, it makes the country more robust and less sensitive as it is not relying on a single thing for income but is spread across many categories.

The fact that it can produce so much across a wide range should be considered a strength and treated as such. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be done so irresponsibly. And it should be done to ensure there is a future when resources are less available ie. develop service industry.

How many LatAm countries make nuclear reactors? Fighter jets? Research, develop, and manufacture their own COVID vaccines? I want my ARVAC. This is just an anecdote, but some years back I was working remotely from Chile, and I needed a laboratory power supply. 0-30V, really simple stuff... there was one, single shop in all of Santiago, Casa Royal, that could supply me. That is the reality with petro / copper states. Nothing is developed there. That's what Milei wants for us.

Contrast that (yes, another anecdote) with when I started hearing some not very nice noises from my car's gearbox. There were several gearbox places within a 30 min drive that would be able to deal with an Aisin 6-speed automatic with dual-clutch transmission. I dare you to try that anywhere else in Latin America (except Brazil). And that's what I value so much about living here. And, again, it's what Milei hates and wants to destroy.

1) Only Argentina has nuclear reactors in the region, similar that only South Africa had them in Africa. Selling off fractional ownership is not closing or cancelling the industry. In Canada it was privatized. The current development of SMRs is being led by private ventures and supported by the utilities. The CAREM-25 SMR in Argentina has been delayed due to funding since 2014 so I would hardly blame Milei for it.
2) Argentina developed a fighter jet in the 40s. Canada had the Arrow project and was shut down by the US at the time. Neither country have an Air Force that can support its own industry, hence typical alliances to develop the fighter jets. Even the F35 was not purely American born. And with which government budget is going to support this industry? I think there are other priorities.
3) Cuba also developed a vaccine. Good for Argentina on doing it. It was either that or wait until they become available from somewhere else. So they made the most of the time.
4) I personally think trying to have industry build variable voltage power supplies which would otherwise be manufactured en bulk for cheap in Asian countries is not the best use of capacity, but if the entrepreneurs are happy to invest and see a return then I must be wrong.

5) Again, there is no exclusivity of doing any of these things and having resources and agriculture industries as well. It is a large country and can balance multiple industries. The government also needs to be mindful of a budget.

6) I don't honestly believe the intent of Milei is to destroy business or innovation. I think it can be a temporary outcome of policies for reasons I have explained in multiple other posts. He wants to increase competition both domestically and internationally and get rid of the monopoly/cartel like behaviour of the past due to the closed policies. The economy and government is becoming sustainable not reliant on protectionist policies and government debt spending at unsustainable levels. It is a transition period. In the end, the country should be better off. That is what I see, that is what many around voted for, that is what many around me continue to see and hope to continue.

 

[SlowWalker]

Part 2

Any concerns I may have expressed about the USD exchange rate are because of this. I can handle an unfavourable exchange rate. I don't like it, but it was like this when I came here in 2017, I enjoyed the biblical 7 fat years, and I made hay while the sun shone, got a plot of ground, built a house... so if I have to deal with a few lean years I'm still ok. My concern, and I will shout this until I'm hoarse, is that the country's industrial and manufacturing backbone is being willfully destroyed. So that a twit and a scammer can move fast and take things. Don't you dare patronize me when I post about well established, very competent, local manufacturers going bust (or drastically downsizing). This is real.

1) I hope there isn't just "a few lean years". I hope the success stays and is perpetual. Argentinians don't seem to want to return to the cyclical nature of the economy based on administrations. If it returns to similar policies of the past and a parallel exchange rate, who does that benefit? Foreigners not Argentinians.

2) Industry is not being willfully destroyed. It is a change in economy. Some may be closed for good, others might be reduced production or temp close waiting for next years election to see if there is a return to previous policies, and finally others are adjusting. Ultimately the last group will be the best off.

3) I have not patronized you. I have tried to respond respectfully to your posts. I have provided data not just opinions or anecdotes to support my claims. You have chosen to either ignore or not respond to a bunch of them. I have not claimed that businesses are not closing or reducing. I have provided opinions as to
- why business are restructuring and not closing completely (Restructuring of debt at cheaper interest which is now available)
- how a company (fate) can have gone bankrupt in 2019 and claim to have been losing money for 30 years by the family because of how they structures the company
- why a business would over quote so much to supply pipe but once knew the value of the competing bid, request the opportunity to bid again (proving that they could have bid cheaper) which is supporting the claim that the business is continuing the business practices they were afforded under previous government's policies
I have provided data to support claims of
- wages
- policy changes by the government regarding the petroleum industry and beef to respond to your question of why those prices are what they are now

Yes Argentina had a record crop. I think it's deeply unfortunate that the twit in power will claim this as his success, when, in fact, he had nothing to do with it. I do hope that Argentina is not using GMO (I have no idea if this is the case, I vaguely remember shipments being turned back from China too). In any case, the agricultural sector ("La Rural") is likely to drive a very hard bargain before liquidating its produce.

Don't disrespect me by posting some AI slop. Thank you.

1) I hope they can prove that they are in fact are GMO as advertised. I guess time will tell.
2) They have every right to drive the hard bargain, and this is no different than what has been the case for decades.
3) Again, I am not AI but a human being. If you ever come to the interior, I would be glad to host a BBQ for you. Your claims of "AI slop" are coming off as claims of "Fake News" whenever it is something that doesn't agree with your point of view.

 

[JMHarris]

You're right, we certainly shouldn't. It's really a different world when you consider that even the salaries represented are not including salary package benefits. As @SlowWalker mentioned, oil workers here get stipends for food, free lodging, company trucks, and even free private schooling for children. It would add even more to the average salary were the cost of those to be included.

The chart nevertheless casts doubt on the purported $500k or $750k figure that the "majority" of the country supposedly makes. It's my personal belief that, regardless of the Provincia's respective average earnings, most are probably allocating 50-60% of their take home to rent. While this is not a great situation, it's what I recall having to personally pay in Los Angeles as well. The fact that other fixed expenses such as utilities, prepagas, car insurance, etc. are rising in step leaves little explanation required for the falling consumption.

The PJ party would have you solve this by resorting to inflationary subsidies, interventionist price caps, rent controls and excessive CEPO parallel exchange rates.

From what I've gathered from Milei's team, they are encouraging foreign investments to shore up foreign reserves in the hopes that it will provide a more robust and accessible private credit market. The idea being that private credit will allow PYMEs to domestically invest and generate greater employment. Those complaining that Milei just wants a resource exploited caste to concentrate wealth are missing the larger picture. It's a two step process that could provide much more tangible results with less inflation.

I do not think Milei & Co. know what they are doing at all. The evidence grows every day. Also, their corruption has an exponential growth trend. what % of that foreign investment will end up in their pockets? The only they they know how to do is steal.

The Fuerza Patria party knows their old ways don't work / won't work and is reforming / reframing.

 

[SlowWalker]

I do not think Milei & Co. know what they are doing at all. The evidence grows every day. Also, their corruption has an exponential growth trend. what % of that foreign investment will end up in their pockets? The only they they know how to do is steal.

The Fuerza Patria party knows their old ways don't work / won't work and is reforming / reframing.

Can you provide any links to actual evidence of all his theft and corruption?

I don't think foreign investment will not enter the country it was that it was going to them and therefore government dependent. They have waited this long and they can wait far longer. There are other projects for them to invest that are far less riskier. The only ones that will lose are the Argentinian people and the country.

There are some objective improvements between now vs 3 years ago. To ignore those is just to reinforce tribal politics. You may not agree with the philosophy but it doesn't mean its wrong either in part or its entirety.

I am also not sure why you are trying to change the topic from salaries to foreign investment and alleged government corruption.