Where should I go to college? US or Argentina?

Re: universities in Canada

This would take some research to figure out if it is worthwhile. It's been 15 years since I graduated from McGill. When I started they were still under a tuition freeze -- I paid 900 bucks a semester for my degree. The year after I graduated they introduced tiered tuition -- Canadian residents pay one fee, Quebec residents another, US residents another, and foreigners from elsewhere another. Graduate programmes have been semi-privatised, ie they don't receive as many subsidies from government so they charge higher tuition fees.

UofT (Toronto) has historically been the most expensive tuition-wise. UBC as one of the posters mentioned is gorgeous but cost of living is high -- although if you live as a student either in rez or shared basement site it's doable. What offsets the cost of tuition/living is work opportunities in the summer. Even if it's not lab work, you could do the traditional student jobs like tree-planting -- if you're good you can earn us$10k or more in a summer. Back breaking work, but I know a lot of people who put themselves through university doing it.

I did my undergrad at McGill (3 years) then graduate at Tufts (art history, nothing too impressive ;) -- I chose Tufts based on a balance of lower tuition fees than some of the other schools I had applied to, reputation of professors, opportunities to take classes at Harvard, MIT, Boston U and Boston College, and location.

"theargie"'s post brought back a few memories from my grad programme -- I had done a 3 year degree at one of the top schools in Canada and in my programme were students from some good US schools (not Ivies, but next tier down). Yet when it came to comprehensive exams, despite my year less of study, I had no problems with the exams -- compared to the others I barely had to study because all of my fundamentals were there, whereas some of the other students had to fill in gaps in their studies in order to be able to complete the exams.

What I guess I'm saying is that although we all look to the USA as being a great bastion of education, it really comes down to what you make of it. Sometimes the mid-level schools are no more worthwhile than a school in your own country. MIT, Harvard etc might be a different story, but as mentioned somewhere above, those degrees might open the door to the interview, but it's you that has to impress.

A lot of people I know, including myself obviously, have the belief that if money is an issue, you're better off to do your undergrad at home and invest your money in a foreign graduate degree (USA / UK / EU etc)

I know 7 years is a long haul -- but I only did 3 years undergrad, and sometimes I think had I done longer I wouldn't have thrown my money into the graduate degree, I probably would have figured out what I actually wanted to do with my life first -- might have ended up down an entirely different path.

My mention of the EU brings another thought to mind -- I've never researched it, but if you have Spanish citizenship, would studying in Spain not be an option? I know job-wise it's terrible there right now, but perhaps there you'd be able to get a good combo of shorter study, decent tuition fees, foreign experience, and possibly entry into a fantastic European or American graduate programme afterwards.
 
Sorry to mention as well -- as an international applicant you may have missed deadlines for application for this year. If there are schools with winter intake you probably have until September to apply for January intake. Otherwise you may not be able to start until September 2012.
 
A big thanks to all of you for your posts! I sincerely appreciate the time you spent sharing your opinions.

If you can avoid going into debt, I would do so. The worst would be to rack up a ton of debt in dollars and then not get a job in the US. Yikes!

Believe me HeyBA, if there is one thing I do not want to do is get into debt, especially if local options are comparable...

7 years here vs 4 years in the States. What is your motivation? Do you want to get enrolled into PhD program in the USA as soon as possible? I think it is a legalized form of slavery. You work for free for your boss. You are supposed to spend all your time in the lab. It is up to him when you will get your degree and before that you can not do anything. If you get a Ph.D in 5 years, you are lucky. In some places 10 years is considered to be a norm. And after that you are out in the world on a shitty postdoc salary, because finding a job outside of academy right away for a foreigner is near to impossible. Or do you have a different plan?

igor, I had no idea PhDs are that degrading! My goal is to study so I can get good qualifications that will enable me to get top-notch, high-paying jobs in the private sector. I am not that interested in working for the public sector or academia. Do you think then that a Master's is a better goal than a PhD, then?

Another problem that you might face is the transportation costs between Argentina and the U.S. unless you plan on staying in the U.S. during our three month summer breaks.

I had not thought about that! It's a good point, since flights fare about USD 2000 for a round trip to MN around that time (from what I've heard).

I have a friend who has a biotec PhD from Berkeley - been working at Genetec a while now. Send me a PM. I'll try to figure out how to narrow your questions about the relative value of US and non-US biotec grad schools vs UB, so I can forward the questions to her or maybe put you in touch with her.

Thank you very much clooz, but I think you misread my query - I am trying to pick an undergraduate, not a graduate school. However, I thank you for your advice and will write it down for the time I graduate and look into this. I would appreciate though if you could ask your friend if her company hires people from Argentina.

Just to bring you some figures, the famous CBC that a lot of people consider "a waste of time" included topics usually taught in the 1st year of any engineering program in the states, so its not that you are sort of giving away one year.

theargie, it was good to hear from someone who has been at my same situation. I believe that what you said here is true - for instance, a friend of mine who is doing the Geology CBC has studied in Análisis Matemático in 2 months what an AP Calculus BC student learns in 2 years. 2 months ago, he was learning limits and the definition of a derivative; when I asked him today what they were doing, he told me they had just finished studying Taylor's Theorem. I couldn't believe what I heard!

I have lots of friends who studied engineering related careers in the US and I have always been quite jealous cos they had the best equipment, top notch labs, etc. But on the other hand, while talking about what they learned in classes, I found out that the ammount of classes and topics we go through each class at UBA go far far beyond what is taught in many american institutions (not all of them of course).

I suspected this just by checking out the major's program. It is very interesting to hear this.

If you choose to study abroad, you will probably obtain a better looking/sounding degree, better GPA than UBA and maybe better chances of getting a job in the US (if thats what you aim for).

But as I always say... In the end, nobody hires the degree but the person. A degree can open you certain doors, but it remains at the door when you step into the interview room.

Much of my fear relies on the fact that today's world seems to have become so much more competitive - from what I've heard, most businesses look down on people without post-grad degrees, and the highly selective colleges won't consider you if you haven't taken the most advanced classes in High School. Into this comes into play what clooz said: "Education is a global business." Private schools here often daunt students with several international exams since elementary school: I've gone through the Trinity Oral Examinations, the Cambridge Flyers, KET, PET and IGCSE/ICE, the International Baccalaureate and the SAT & SAT Subject Tests. Inside, I also believe that it is what you know that counts. But is that real in the outside world? Quite frankly I believe an individual with a CV with an extensive list of internationally-recognized examinations, titles, events, etc. might seem much more valuable to the eyes of a company than one with a simple UBA degree; and do people who are unfamiliar with UBA have any way of knowing how good the education you get is? I have the impression (correct me if I am wrong) that in today's corporate world, the sad truth is that image is valued more than intelligence and preparation. While I would love to be "the guy who knows the most," I think that, career-wise, prestige is an unavoidable consideration - especially when you are selling yourself in an interview. Then again, this is based on my impressions, so if any of you guys think differently I would like to hear our opinions as well!

My mention of the EU brings another thought to mind -- I've never researched it, but if you have Spanish citizenship, would studying in Spain not be an option? I know job-wise it's terrible there right now, but perhaps there you'd be able to get a good combo of shorter study, decent tuition fees, foreign experience, and possibly entry into a fantastic European or American graduate programme afterwards.

That is an interesting suggestion syngirl! I will look into that. I would appreciate if any Spanish expats around the forum could suggest options in Spain, as I have no idea of the educational options there.

Sorry to mention as well -- as an international applicant you may have missed deadlines for application for this year. If there are schools with winter intake you probably have until September to apply for January intake. Otherwise you may not be able to start until September 2012.

I am aware of that syngirl, but thanks anyways!
 
"That is an interesting suggestion syngirl! I will look into that. I would appreciate if any Spanish expats around the forum could suggest options in Spain, as I have no idea of the educational options there."

I'm not a Spanish expat (nor am I Spanish) but many of my Spanish friends attend several excellent universities. One that always comes to mind for sciences of any sort is La Universidad Publica de Navarra in Pamplona. With la UPNa you get the choice of taking many of your classes in Spanish, English, and Euskera (maybe this one isn't your cup of tea ;) ) so you also get a good background and solid foundation there. Plus, when I sat in with my friend in his labs, the equipment was a lot more modern than some I have had seen in US universities.

Also, for anything biological based, la Universidade de Vigo. It's a smaller university and it's younger, but it manages to hold its own ground pretty well. It just takes a bit of research to find your match.

Also, shooting a few emails to admissions directors never hurt either. You never know what you may stumble across in the ways of scholarships or grants.
 
UBA. You are not studying Marketing or Law, you are doing something related to knowledge. You don´t need relationships like MBA students, you need to show that you know how to get things done. Were do you learn how to do everything with nothing? In the shopping-mall-like American college? Or in the intensive, crazy bureaucratic, underfunded world of the UBA? And, you still will be in Buenos Aires instead of some town surrounded by rednecks and corn. And, debt free. FREE. Think about that for a moment.

After your Licenciatura, choose the path that you like more,and go for it with all your strenght. Your knowledge will be your bank. And remember: Publish or Perish.
 
marksoc said:
UBA. You are not studying Marketing or Law, you are doing something related to knowledge. You don´t need relationships like MBA students, you need to show that you know how to get things done. Were do you learn how to do everything with nothing? In the shopping-mall-like American college? Or in the intensive, crazy bureaucratic, underfunded world of the UBA? And, you still will be in Buenos Aires instead of some town surrounded by rednecks and corn. And, debt free. FREE. Think about that for a moment.

After your Licenciatura, choose the path that you like more,and go for it with all your strenght. Your knowledge will be your bank. And remember: Publish or Perish.

Don't listen to this moron. U of Minn. is located in Minneapolis is a very nice city, but very cold place in the winter. They are not rednecks, the average education level is one of the highest in the U.S. Make your decisions based on the facts and what you want to do.
 
Francal, if you applied to the ivies this year, and know the difference between need blind and need aware, you know the game in the States. While every country has some good Universities, the US is the defacto place for the best possible education today. The best and brightest from all over the world are banging at the gates of the top US colleges for good reason-- these schools are respected the world over. I think Oxbridge is the only thing that competes.

So you need to decide if you want to give top US colleges another go. Your stats were competitive coming from Argentina. Did you or your counselor talk to any of these schools to find out why you didn't get in?

Did you take the most advanced classes your high school offered? Take SATll tests and AP exams? Did you have good teacher recommendations? Good extra curricular activities?

Often top schools and peer schools you didn't apply to this year are worth a second shot with a more carefully considered application. A gap year with impressive activities can make the difference.

No top US school means too much debt, all have debt caps or no debt at all. Don't give up too easily.
 
Francal,

You should look into Singapore universities. They have very good ones and a booming private biotech/medical research industry. In fact, they do a lot of research that US companies aren't able to. They're doing their best to lure talent and offer very good packages (funding for school + employment) for good students from anywhere.

I bet you'd also find it a more interesting place. There's a big mix of foreigners there and the infrastructure is great. Lots of nearby places you could hop to for a visit too (Australia, Malaysia, China, etc.). Minneapolis is a nice city but quite isolated. You'd probably need to buy a car and you'd hate the weather.

OTOH, if you go to a US university, note that you can complete your degree in less than 4 years. This will lower both your living expenses and tuition. Some schools will even charge you a maximum tuition per semester regardless of the number of credits you take. I finished my Biology degree (though it was a general one) in 2 years by going to summer class and taking extra classes. You seem at least as motivated as I was.
 
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