Where should I go to college? US or Argentina?

[igor]

Regarding international universities there are only a few recognizable names like Oxford, Sorbonne etc. UBA is definitely not one of them. So, hardly you will be able to impress somebody with your UBA degree.

On the other hand, it is better to graduate abroad, than from some low rated university in the States. Just because there is no direct comparison. Some of my friends got Ph.D. in Biology from Moscow University and some in U of Illinois in Chicago. So, several times I've heard an opinion that it is better to get a degree from Moscow. This way you are considered to be an "international scientist" that is basically is a category of its own, while, UIC is just a university #83 in the ranking.

So, I'd say if you would be able to get a scholarship from top ten universities in this list - up to John Hopkins, then definitely go for it.

U of Minnesota vs UBA - Frankly, I don't see much difference. You just need to decide on what is better for you on other criteria. Basically, it comes down to
If you want to see the world and get an international experience - go to Minnesota.
If it is important for you to stay with your friends and relatives, stay here. That's about it.

7 years here vs 4 years in the States. What is your motivation? Do you want to get enrolled into PhD program in the USA as soon as possible? I think it is a legalized form of slavery. You work for free for your boss. You are supposed to spend all your time in the lab. It is up to him when you will get your degree and before that you can not do anything. If you get a Ph.D in 5 years, you are lucky. In some places 10 years is considered to be a norm. And after that you are out in the world on a shitty postdoc salary, because finding a job outside of academy right away for a foreigner is near to impossible. Or do you have a different plan?

 

[jb5]

Have you run the calculators to find out what CSS Profile schools would expect you to pay? If the number is affordable, I'd stick with US schools as they have much more aid for internationals than Canadian schools. If you can pay outright for schools in Canada they would be worth considering. look at U of Toronto, McGill, Queens and UBC.

The ivies are getting harder every year and have increasing numbers of internationals applying. Dartmouth, Harvard, Yale and Princeton are need blind for all and meet demonstrated need for all. The other 4 are not.

There are many more than 10 US schools considered elite today. While in the past 15 or so schools were in a strata of their own, the increased interest of internationals and kids from every corner of the US has pushed the top ivies and their peers to acceptance rates under 10% which allowed many more schools to attract to students and become considered top.

The tier of schools a bit below the top that are lesser known to internationals are probably your best bet. This would include: Bowdoin, Bates, Colby, Carlton, Colorado College, Claremont McKenna, Vassar, Sarah Lawrence, Colgate, Skidmore, Union, Santa Clara, Macalester, St. Olaf.......Schools ranked between 20 and 75 on the US News rankings (a little higher for liberal arts colleges).

You will have to ask each school whether they will treat you as a freshman or transfer-- you don't get to decide. All schools make you report all college work and have their own rules on what makes a student a transfer.

As for HeyBA's post, this is not true for top US schools. All are not for profit and endowment money is used as tuition does not fully cover the cost of education. While excessive debt is unwise, there are very few financial packages that do not include some loans. The average American college student borrows about $25,000 today.

 

[gouchobob]

Where are the jobs or what you want to do when you graduate? You should go to a school where you mostly likely end up working or having a career in your chosen field. You seem a lot more together than I was at 18. I didn't have a clear idea what I wanted to study. Don't be surprised if your plans change once you are in school. I think you would be much better off attending university in the U.S. from a career and job standpoint.

 

[JohanXCallao]

A friend mine from Brazil is pre-med here and constantly complains about how un-empowering his educators are. His words, "Extremely Dogmatic, with a pettiness bordering on the farcical." Take his review with a grain of salt.

 

[anabeeare]

Also, please keep in mind that the bigger state universities are less likely to be financially generous. One of the biggest suggestions that I can offer you (as an undergraduate student in the US) is looking at some of the smaller, public states schools. At least... for your undergraduate. There's a lot of advice going around that is along the lines of 'do well in a lesser known school and spend your big bucks on your postgraduate degree).

For your needs (biological sciences), you might also be interesting in checking out universities that tout themselves as a 'research university'. There are a lot more opportunities and the professors are a lot more open to letting undergrads get experience in the field and welcome them on board projects and research studies... and that alone opens a lot of doors.

Another problem that you might face is the transportation costs between Argentina and the U.S. unless you plan on staying in the U.S. during our three month summer breaks.

 

[clooz]

I have a friend who has a biotec PhD from Berkeley - been working at Genetec a while now. Send me a PM. I'll try to figure out how to narrow your questions about the relative value of US and non-US biotec grad schools vs UB, so I can forward the questions to her or maybe put you in touch with her.

I did what you are proposing, attended a US school to get a Masters as an international student, although a heck of a long time ago. It worked out very well. I then worked in R&D for 30 years, hiring people from schools and so on, so saw it from both sides. So I suggest from my experience several things for you to investigate, which I wish I had known before getting myself into a graduate program.

Igor's post I think sums up engineering schools well at the PhD level. The MS level is much different cost-wise - the time it takes is shorter and less open to taking forever, and so the transition to work status more pressing. I'll try to talk about the way that engineering schools are seen from the perspective of engineering companies hiring graduate MS and PhD students, at least in my experience, and how that can affect where to go and what to do along the way.

The general comments about the changing cost and value of US schools, I agree with. US higher education has overall become an industry managed by high-salary CEO's and MBA's, and accountants. It's products are overpriced by global standards, and in many cases it delivers graduate education only as a secondary product. So finding good profs to work with as a grad student is like waiting and hoping for the 39 colectivo to appear at 3am, and when it does trying to get on, then hoping it's going some place good, eh any place recognizable. Education is a global business. So broaden your search to include schools in all highly functioning education systems. In the US R&D labs of the large company where I worked, we hired great grad students from schools in China, India, Pakistan, Denmark, Finland, Italy, Germany, France, Canada, Brazil, Japan, the UK. We looked at the work they had done in school - the written thesis - and whether it represented real work on real problems and which part of the work was theirs. We found and met them via the conference proceedings in which they published papers about their work.

Today the online proceedings of the conferences and workshops in technical fields let you see who is working on what. You can see who is on the program committees that referee the work and organize the conferences.... Look for the names of younger newer program committee members - what are they themselves working on? What did they publish last? Also look for the names of biotec company staff on these program committees, and whether they are submitting papers or not. This is the best way to find names of company people actively working on internal research areas. Some companies do not permit staff to publish, but they still do attend conferences, so for workshops and specialty conferences you can look at lists of attendees and workshop participants. You can then call these people up by name or email them at their companies and ask for advice on schools. Ask what they would have done differently in school. They'll be flattered you asked their opinions. ... These are the people who can hire you later. They know who in which college departments are doing significant biotech work rather than just politics or fluff. They know whether these faculty people are good to work for and with or not. They will give you the names of their R&D collaborators in other schools internationally. You follow the trail of breadcrumbs from published work to students to schools and to company staff and from them again to school departments. Also ask those grad students in their 3rd and later years whether they in retrospect should have gone elsewhere, and why or why not? It's by the 3rd year that people start to figure out the consequences of the situations they are in and so the choices they made..

Having identified some active areas of published current work that may interest you, try to write a term paper or do a project on a topic related to one. Send it to the professors in the schools and ask for advice. Hope they steal your ideas so you can claim credit. Try to attend a workshop or conference in your area. If you sign up for a grad school that is far away from where the annual conferences in your field are, you will miss the opportunities to participate and network. Hawaii is a great school for some things but conferences hardly ever go there because it looks like a boondoggle and the airfare is high. Large touristy metro areas like Boston, Toronto, LA, Orlando, Portland get some of the main conferences in CS for example. The international conferences tour college campuses in cheaper cities off season like Barcelona, Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Vancouver. Cheaper than Paris, London, Berlin that is.

I personally don't think the strategy of using a name brand school and paying a lot in years and fees to be in attendance at the school, and then when there looking for interesting classes and thesis topics to sign up for is very effective. Try to get started on this before you go. Hypothetically find the best-fit professors for the field that you want to work in, ask them how to arrange to work for them to get the experience (and a degree) you want. The schools that this prof may have standing at may vary over time. Perhaps they are planning a sabbatical-year in Milan or Bali, Kyoto or Cambodia or are associate professors there - if so that's where I'd go. Find out if they are retiring the year after you arrive at the school.

School admission realities: Each school has a liason office called something like an International Student Office - they have a list of all the enrolled international students - call up or email them and ask them to forward your contact info or some questions to a current international student from Argentina. Say your asking for advice on the admission equivalence of the UB degree, and about related issues. Sometimes you can bypass the admin people and get to the student directly this way.

UBC in Vancouver - yes love the campus, and the people and the world's best ethnographic collection of Pacific Rim art. Said to be very expensive to live there.


Good luck.

 

[theargie]

Francal,
I'm gonna tell you my experience at UBA.
I've been an Industrial Engineering student for the last 6 years (hopefully I will graduate next semester!)

I had the same ideas as you right now back when I was in high school, I graduated from high school in the States, had really good SAT scores and considering my status of "citizen of a 3rd world country" among other things, It was easier for me to get into a couple of good schools without having to pay the tuition.

However, and it was a personal decision, I decided to come back to argentina to pursue my degree at UBA.

If I had studied in the US for sure I would have been already graduated, since an Engineering degree takes 4 years instead of the 6 it takes at UBA.

I have lots of friends who studied engineering related careers in the US and I have always been quite jealous cos they had the best equipment, top notch labs, etc. But on the other hand, while talking about what they learned in classes, I found out that the ammount of classes and topics we go through each class at UBA go far far beyond what is taught in many american institutions (not all of them of course).

Just to bring you some figures, the famous CBC that a lot of people consider "a waste of time" included topics usually taught in the 1st year of any engineering program in the states, so its not that you are sort of giving away one year.
When I passed the CBC course of study (the school of engineering at UBA considers it as a first year) the admissions guy told me that only 3% had passed that year. And from that 3% that passed the CBC only 10% actually graduates.

A professor once told us : "take a look around and count 10 people including yourself... keep in mind that only one out of those 10 will actually become an engineer, now ask yourself what will it take you to be the one that succeeds".
And that really reflected the nature of UBA, nobody gives anything for granted, If you don't study hard.. really hard, you will not pass. If you study your butt off, there will still be a chance of not passing.
In the 16 weeks each semester lasts, they pump so much knowledge inside your head for each class you take, its just insane (And I don't quite agree with this methodology).
If you reach 70% in an exam, that equals to a 4 grade. 75% is a 5, 80 is a 6, and so on... 100% is a 10.

I have met one of the most brilliant minded guys in this college, guys that had competed internationally in math and science competitions, yet they failed many exams at UBA and will still fail.
So its not about just being a genious.. Its about moving forward and learning to stand up after you fall several times and think you will never succeed.

Another thing, engineering at UBA is not considered just a bachelors degree. A former coworker went to grad school in the states and when he validated the UBA degree it counted as a masters in the US, not because it lasted 6 years but because of the list of classes the career has and the content of those classes. Needless to say, he went straight for a PhD.

To resume a little bit. It's a really tough decision the one you have in your hands. If you choose UBA you are probably choosing the difficult path, but in my own opinion it will be way more rewarding, yet very painful. Just think about thousands trying and just a couple of dozens succeeding and you being in that small group. And let me tell you, the few ones that graduate have lots of opportunities waiting for them!

If you choose to study abroad, you will probably obtain a better looking/sounding degree, better GPA than UBA and maybe better chances of getting a job in the US (if thats what you aim for).

But as I always say... In the end, nobody hires the degree but the person. A degree can open you certain doors, but it remains at the door when you step into the interview room.

Having said all this, I am not underestimating other statements posted by people who probably disagree with me, I am just expressing my opinion and defending the institution that gave me so much and opened to me so many doors.

Contact me for whatever you need!

>It seems odd that it only takes four years to obtain a B.S. from the U while in UBA it takes seven -

That is easy .... at UBA you be out on strike or enjoying 5 day weekends for 3 out of the 7 years.

Tangerine, let me tell you that your (quite insulting by the way) statement has absolutely nothing to do with my experience at this University. I do not know how it works in other "facultades" but at school of engineering I have only missed 5 or 6 days of class due to strikes in the entire 6 years of my career and I swear I'm not lying.

 

[theargie]

So, I'd say if you would be able to get a scholarship from top ten universities in this list - up to John Hopkins, then definitely go for it.

U of Minnesota vs UBA - Frankly, I don't see much difference. You just need to decide on what is better for you on other criteria. Basically, it comes down to
If you want to see the world and get an international experience - go to Minnesota.
If it is important for you to stay with your friends and relatives, stay here. That's about it.

7 years here vs 4 years in the States. What is your motivation? Do you want to get enrolled into PhD program in the USA as soon as possible? I think it is a legalized form of slavery. You work for free for your boss. You are supposed to spend all your time in the lab. It is up to him when you will get your degree and before that you can not do anything. If you get a Ph.D in 5 years, you are lucky. In some places 10 years is considered to be a norm. And after that you are out in the world on a shitty postdoc salary, because finding a job outside of academy right away for a foreigner is near to impossible. Or do you have a different plan?

Totally agree with Igor. In my previous post I was mainly comparing UBA with medium ranked schools in US.

It is also true that you will have less competition when looking for a position at a research institution in argentina, such as CONICET or Instituto Balseiro, since there are only a few graduates per year. Those institutions normally send their investigators to continue their studies in top ranked international universities, or become involved in international projects.

 

[PhilipDT]

I'm not sure how this will apply to a technical science degree like biology, but I had a lunch meeting with the director of finance at the UADE a few months ago; it was one of the most depressing conversations I've ever had. He basically told me that, while a degree from there would be well respected in Argentina, international companies would probably not lend it any credence and international universities may not honor the credits.

 

[syngirl]

I'm not sure how this will apply to a technical science degree like biology, but I had a lunch meeting with the director of finance at the UADE a few months ago; it was one of the most depressing conversations I've ever had. He basically told me that, while a degree from there would be well respected in Argentina, international companies would probably not lend it any credence and international universities may not honor the credits.

This doesn't necessarily apply across the board -- nor does it even apply to every department within a particular university. For any department within a university there are certain affiliations to professional and educational organizations that must be maintained in order for that department to receive recognition as an accredited body.

When considering universities in Argentina it's really a good time to tap into all of your local contacts -- because reputation isn't just about the university as a whole but department by department. So while the general impression might be that private institutes here are just out to make money, some of the private institutes do have the best in certain departments etc.