Why We Might Soon See Another Argentine Default

Yes but it would be immoral to pay "VULTURE FUNDS".

How can you consider taking food from the mouths of poor Argentine babies and feeding it to greedy VULTURE FUNDS!

BTW, does CFK say "Vulture Funds" in her speeches or is there a term for it in Spanish. I'm sure the political consultants have drummed it into everyone in the administration to use the word "vulture" as many times as possible whenever discussing the topic.
 
Still, 93% of the creditors accepted that the debt be restructured. The vulture funds didn't lose 70%, they bought this debt at a discounted rate (didn't search precisely the percentage but likely around 20/25%) and pretend to get paid 100% while the ones who paid 100% accepted at 93% to get paid for 30/35% of the amount. It would be quite unfair that this latter group gets penalized by the former one.

That was my point. (It's not a black/white situation though, I agree.)

You may be right, by the same token, individuals in Argentina that acquired numerous real estate properties at auctions during the 80's and 90's for 10 cents on the dollar, should not be able to sell today at current full market prices ??? :confused:
 
Is that a moral judgement or a commercial one ?

If someone owed you money, would you be happy to receive only 30% of it ?

Both.

Commercially at the time it was pretty high risk behaviour to think they would see the full face value of that debt.

And nothing that has unfolded to date makes me believe otherwise.

There is a reason 92.6% accepted.
 
No they shouldn't have taken the "restructure". I'm glad they keep the issue alive. Let the Argentine govt. fight their case in court. Let them show how good and honorable they are.

Thats great, glad you find it interesting.

But I cant see how it was a wise investment decision, just cant see the Arg govt paying them, can you?
 
Seems to me if I remember, that the contract on the bonds, signed under New York State Law, stated that all parties must be paid equally, meaning that you couldn't choose to pay some bondholders and not others. Cristina refuses to pay the vulture funds - I think even if she "had enough" she still wouldn't pay them out of spite. Leave aside the question of the validity of the vulture funds specifically and think of this money as money that was owed when the original contract for the bonds was created and agreed to by Argentina. I'll get to the morality of the vulture funds in a moment.

If I owe money to someone and agree to pay the principal back plus interest, I've made a moral and legal obligation to pay that money back at the terms specified. Many times I feel a stronger moral obligation than I do legal when confronted with a problem in paying back debt - and I have had such in my life. I have been in a situation where it was a very close decision as to whether to put food in the mouth of my family or pay a debtor. I have never not paid back a debt, no matter how hard it was, or how long it took, no matter how painful it was to clear it up. And my family never went hungry. I always managed to make it work.

How? Austerity measures. Extra work. Anything it took.

If I'm trying, doing everything I can to make it work, did I get upset when a debtor gave me a hard time when I couldn't meet my payments and defaulted? Sure. Did I stamp my feet and tell the debtor to piss of then, I'm not going to pay because I don't like the fact that you want your money? Did I get pissed off when some other bank bought my mortgage from the bank I was dealing with when trying to renegotiate a payment plan with the first bank and then refuse to accept a different payment schedule? Damn right I did, but I didn't walk away from my house and tell them to f**k off, as much as I wanted to.

The thing is, Argentina doesn't really act in a moral and legal manner in many things, and everyone knows it. Argentina borrowed that money, taking the money of investors and promising to pay it back. There were a wide range of investors who risked their money on Argentina's promise. Argentina then proceeded to spend money on things that were unsustainable, that produced no new wealth, that were expenses without income. A lot of that money was lost to corruption.

The policies of the Argentine governments have been pretty piss-poor. In my opinion, they brought the collapse on themselves by irresponsible behavior and are asking the investors to pay for their mistake. The only reason 93% of the investors agreed to take the revaluation was not because they are nice people and wish Argentina all the best - it is because, pretty much like the very citizens of Argentina themselves, the Argentine government really left no choice if they had any reasonable prospect of getting any money back at all.

Now, as for the "vulture" funds and taking food from babies' mouths. I can understand how some people may feel that these guys are rat bastards. I personally don't like the idea of what they've done, but I also don't think they're all evil as some do. I don't even think they should be banned or regulated out of existence or anything like that. What they did was within the law that everyone agreed to when the contracts were signed. I honestly don't know the specifics of this and if I'm wrong, someone point it out, but I have to assume that Elliot bought the shares either before Argentina actually defaulted when it was a great possibility, maybe at or around the price that the settlers settled for, or sometime shortly afterward at a higher price than Argentina was offering, or some mix of this. People didn't know exactly what would happen and Elliot was securing those who wanted to get out that they would at least get something and he would assume the risk. He spent a lot of money to assume that risk.

Even if Elliot is the robber baron most think - Argentina owed that money to someone anyway. They contracted for it. It may be unfortunate to Argentina that someone bought the debt and refused to settle, but it isn't an excuse not to pay it, except for an entity who has no or low honor and morals, in my opinion.

Argentina borrowed the money, squandered it, then did the typical Porteño shrug, offered a giggle and said "ups" (say it with a Castellano accent). And like a taxi driver swapping out a good 100 peso note for a false one (most here should know that scam), demand the evil foreign investors cover the cost.

To me, in this situation, they are like the beggar on the street who gets mad at you because you don't give him any coins, but you've given him coins before, he swore he was getting something to eat with the money, and you see him shooting up heroin in the alley one day and you decided you weren't going to do it any more.

Who is it really who is taking money from Argentine babies' mouths and filling their own greedy pockets?
 
Most sovereign debt issues now have collective action clauses whereby a majority of (usually) 75% of independent bondholders can make the agreement binding on all

And of course it only creates precedent for international courts ... bonds issued subject to the jurisdiction of the issuing country are always subject to the risk of national parliaments re-writing the rules as Argentina, and now Greece, have done.

Did Greece not only renegotiate on debt issued in Greece or am i wrong?
 
Did Greece not only renegotiate on debt issued in Greece or am i wrong?

No, you are right. They couldn´t apply the same "pressure" on the debt issued subject to UK law because they were not able to re-write the rules retrospectively (by an act of their own Parliament) which is what they did with the domestic bonds .... and which is what Argentina has done. By comparison with Greece, Argentina is trying to have its cake and eat it.
 
There is a silver lining to this. Because of Argentine's reputation as a dead-beat, the politicians won't be able to easily borrow money from overseas, squander it and in-debt the citizenry as is currently happening in most other countries.
 
There is a silver lining to this. Because of Argentine's reputation as a dead-beat, the politicians won't be able to easily borrow money from overseas, squander it and in-debt the citizenry as is currently happening in most other countries.

True. However, in practice, history suggests that when the ability of a government to borrow disappears, that just leaves printing--more, better, faster. Some would say that's even worse.
 
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Yes but it would be immoral to pay "VULTURE FUNDS".

How can you consider taking food from the mouths of poor Argentine babies and feeding it to greedy VULTURE FUNDS!

BTW, does CFK say "Vulture Funds" in her speeches or is there a term for it in Spanish. I'm sure the political consultants have drummed it into everyone in the administration to use the word "vulture" as many times as possible whenever discussing the topic.

There is no such thing as a "vulture fund", this is just pure propaganda. There is a bond market, people buy and sell bonds, if people weren't able to sell their bonds they wouldnt buy them in the first place. This is an explicit part of the arrangement. If a country doesnt want to be involved with "vulture funds" then they should have written into their loan agreements that they are non transferrable.Good luck with that idea ! Or perhaps the debtors may want to compensate the original buyers of the bonds who were forced to sell at a loss ?

As for "taking food" from the mouths of poor argentina babies, where does this come from ? The government can choose how it spents its money, it can choose to pay its debts, it can choose to feed babies or it can have football para todos and subsidise state funded TV propaganda.

Third world debt is a problem (although I dont consider Argentina to be a third world country), but it is for the international community, the world bank, the IMF and the regional goverments (EU etc) to resolve these issues. It is not the role of individual creditors to resolve the economic problems of errant borrowers.

People invest in the bond market and will use the law to recover debts. People borrow money and some of them use the law to avoid paying their debts ( or ignore it completely). Thats the way of the world, it makes good theatre for us bystanders.
 
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