Work and Salary Expectations

[citygirl]

AFAIK, most companies did give raises to employees last year. Union-mandated raises were in the 25% range. Non-mandated raises but at employer discretion usually were around 20%. Some companies that I know of didn't give raises but the majority did.

As to sustainability - well, that is a mixed discussion. Some companies (esp multi-nationals) deal with it on multiple levels - VERY low starting salaries, an expectation of a high percentage of turnover and also at the end of the day, they have an international balance sheet so even if they lose a little bit of money here, it is compensated for somewhere else. Those that can't are looking at multiple solutions - from putting people en negro to moving projects out of here to shutting down the company altogether. Those that do all their business here have it a bit easier, they just turn around and pass all the costs to their customers (which winds up fueling the inflation cycle).

FWIW - I have exactly the opposite experience with work quality here as Jared did. My employees here are some of the hardest-working and turn in the highest quality of any of our global teams. They're also much more creative in looking for solutions and speaking up. I have ZERO complaints with work quality and would happily hire 100 more employees just like them. Just not in Argentina

 

[marksoc]

Money is important, especially below the 4000 ARS line, but I think that workers care a lot about making something of themselves, doing something in the world. What I mean is, people will be happy if you make them part of the decisions, listen to their ideas, even (gasp!) change the work process and give bonuses to those that made your process more productive. If you expect monkeys that push buttons,that is what you will get. Give them a purpose in life, and they will endure those 8-10 hours at the office, happy to be there.

 

[LostinBA]

Hi. I was in the same situation. In addition to payment, I offered an Argentine programmer 10% of the gross profits of the company I was trying to build. His first reaction was 'no, it;s not enough'. There was no thanks for this unexpected bonus offering...his response was simply that he wanted more. I finally fired him after many months of shitty productivity and constant complaints. These people are almost uniformly lazy. I would never again hire any Argentine or try to partner with one ever again. They have rightfully earned the international disrespect they garner. Now I'm just here for the meat and chicks although several other countries are looking pretty good with this inflation.

 

[Guillo]

You should totally partner with Jared, he has your same opinion.

One thing you might want to consider... it might have not been enough! Perhaps what you offered was way below market value or what the guy valued his job. And a share of gross profit (interesting as it might be) perhaps was not what the guy was looking for, specially if he was looking for a job and not to work as a freelance pro and sell you his services.

On the other hand, if he had a shitty productivity and constant complaints, it makes sense to fire him. The crappy attitude might well be related to what he was making, would you mind quoting salary to compare?

 

[jaredwb]

And now inflation is workers fault or responsibility to change. A lot has been talked about inflation sources (a lot of cash entering the economy, lack of investment from companies and a bunch other things) but the fact that employees need to keep their salaries up to date on inflation has never been one of them, at most a consequence of the inflationary cycle and not a cause. On the other hand your sense of entitlement to profit ignoring worker conditions and reality, won't take you far here, as it has been already shown with your local business ventures.

Not saying the employees are causing it but they sure as hell are taking advantage of it and using it to "profit" off the backs of the companies.

And not sure what you mean about my local business ventures. All are, and have been HIGHLY successful. I CHOSE to "pull out" of Argentina because my costs were too high and the labor force (local) was useless.

AND HELL YES I HAVE AN ENTITLEMENT TO PROFIT!! THAT'S WHAT I OPENED A BUSINESS FOR! WHAT KIND OF STUPID COMMENT IS THAT???

 

[Guillo]

Not saying the employees are causing it but they sure as hell are taking advantage of it and using it to "profit" off the backs of the companies.

And not sure what you mean about my local business ventures. All are, and have been HIGHLY successful. I CHOSE to "pull out" of Argentina because my costs were too high and the labor force (local) was useless.

AND HELL YES I HAVE AN ENTITLEMENT TO PROFIT!! THAT'S WHAT I OPENED A BUSINESS FOR! WHAT KIND OF STUPID COMMENT IS THAT???

Well, you continue to ignore whatever motivation the workers might have. They are not your slaves. They have a mind of their own and will naturally act on whatever they consider their best interest

At the same time, you continue in your ways of dismissing inflation as a (negative, crappy, bothering) reality of Argentina´s market, and something that must be dealt with somehow, not just ignored as if it didn't exist.

Just as anywhere else in the world, investing doesn't guarantee a profit, if its not done properly, if you are working against the law, or you didn't choose your investment right.

 

[Guillo]

Ok, slightly offtopic. I decided to google up Entitlement to figure out whether it had other connotations or implied meaning in english (you live to learn!), and found this pearl in wikipedia:

In clinical psychology and psychiatry, an unrealistic, exaggerated, or rigidly held sense of entitlement may be considered a symptom of narcissistic personality disorder, seen in those who 'because of early frustrations...arrogate to themselves the right to demand lifelong reimbursement from fate'[2].
Narcissists hold unreasonable expectations of particularly favorable treatment and automatic compliance because they consider themselves special. Failure to comply is considered an attack on their superiority, and the perpetrator is considered an "awkward" or "difficult" person. Defiance of their will is a narcissistic injury that can trigger narcissistic rage.[3]
'John Murray (1964) in his now classic paper of narcissism and the ego ideal' laid great 'emphasis on narcissistic entitlement and the manner in which this reflects infantile pregenital narcissistic fixations' - something which led in turn to the 'notion of the "narcissistic triad". The narcissistic triad involves (1) narcissistic entitlement, (2) disappointment and disillusionment at the frustration of narcissistic needs, and (3) narcissistic rage'[4].
Belief in the special, exceptional nature of 'narcissistic entitlement dictates that the patient has a right to life on his own terms...Such narcissistic entitlement plays a central role in borderline pathology, since the borderline sees himself as a special person with special rights and entitlements, such that any frustration of these entitled desires tends to undermine and often shatter the patient's self-esteem'[5].
In the wake of Kohut's self-psychology, a valorisation of narcissistic entitlement might be said to have taken place, as 'the age of "normal narcissism" and normal narcissistic entitlement had arrived...[a] child's right and entitlement that its parents are obliged to proffer at the least the minimum requisite "self-object" soothing...to allow the infant/child to develop a sense of self-cohesion'[6].

 

[jb5]

Guillo, how long have you been in your current job?

Do you like and trust your employer?

 

[Guillo]

Guillo, how long have you been in your current job?

Do you like and trust your employer?

This current job, its been close to 4 years already, big company. I dont trust them with a some things, but I do for others. I like some parts of working there, some I don't.
The previous job, on a small consultancy firm, I was in for 14 years and I knew that they couldn't be trusted. I staid that long because I felt I could still benefit from working there, and left when I felt that was no longer the case.

I'd NEVER blindly trust on my employer. I consider that confidence is something that must be earned. I'd give them the benefit of the doubt, so they can, but not much more.

 

[clooz]

I too must admit I'm wondering what Verito is saying. I'm all for empowering and motivating employees with something other than money. But every employee who has added his or her feedback (which I appreciate) has said salary is their #1 issue.

So Verito - what ideas other than money? I'm more than willing to learn and am not being close-minded. I've just run out of ideas so by all means, share away!

verito's description reminds me exactly of the same situation in the US when inflation was high, business was contracting, and a recession was starting. Being a first-level manager and doing salary admin was hell. Workers including managers knew that those who stayed employed would get wage increases or not that were not meaningfully motivating vs inflation. The business world was full of books and courses and folklore on how to reward employees beyond money. Retaining and motivating employees always depends on understanding the company culture and what employees work for beyond money. Individuals do value many different things in their work beyond pay, including being thanked in person by their manager, peer recognition, fun, power, responsibility, respect, creative space, social activity, challenge, growth, hope, ... Retaining people is also about keeping these values intact. People choose companies to stay at based on the company's culture and how they fit into it. Working at a place you don't fit is hard work (high personal cost), vs working where you fit and have shared-values with is much easier.