World Politics & Argentineans

[mariano-BCN]

I went a couple of weeks ago to a presentation of a book about how the K's got rich thanks to the investment of Chinese and Canadian investors in the soya, gas & petrol, mine industry. One of the writers said something which made me think: "The economical group of Cristina knows they'll lose political power within 2 years and will do everything to hold economical power in order to make life miserable to who ever may come after 2015."
That resumes everything about peronism in Argentina.

And back to the foreign policy attitude of Argentineans: the annoying thing is that not only the K's are ignorant about world politics but the whole spectrum of left and right. I don't see any politician, who really knows something about world politics in Argentina, they just don't care. It's nearly impossible to have a nice conversation with Argentineans here about world politics, they shine in ignorance but for sure they've an opinion ("imperialism against Syria!"). It makes me sad but I know I've to accept it if I live in Argentina.
But: I found an interesting place where they give courses about world issues: La Asociacion de naciones unidas en Buenos Aires. I'll attend the course about US-foreign policy.

 

[ajoknoblauch]

I went a couple of weeks ago to a presentation of a book about how the K's got rich thanks to the investment of Chinese and Canadian investors in the soya, gas & petrol, mine industry. One of the writers said something which made me think: "The economical group of Cristina knows they'll lose political power within 2 years and will do everything to hold economical power in order to make life miserable to who ever may come after 2015."
That resumes everything about peronism in Argentina.

And back to the foreign policy attitude of Argentineans: the annoying thing is that not only the K's are ignorant about world politics but the whole spectrum of left and right. I don't see any politician, who really knows something about world politics in Argentina, they just don't care. It's nearly impossible to have a nice conversation with Argentineans here about world politics, they shine in ignorance but for sure they've an opinion ("imperialism against Syria!"). It makes me sad but I know I've to accept it if I live in Argentina.
But: I found an interesting place where they give courses about world issues: La Asociacion de naciones unidas en Buenos Aires. I'll attend the course about US-foreign policy.

Many Argentines are captives of an archaic ideology that lets them consider themselves victims of various ill-defined imperialisms, blinds them to their own complicity and shortcomings, and leads them to seek "solutions" that make their situation worse.

 

[arlean]

I think that most of them don't "think." But I would say the same about USA-uns. I have this theory that thinking is a learned skill. Most people never learn because they never do it. They only parrot. They just "know" and you waste your time on them. What their dad said or their teacher or in some cases their spiritual leader or their union/ But actual research and then thinking is something they don't engage in.. I agree that you need new friends but these are okay as casual acquaintances I think. If I didn't feel that way, I'd live a pretty isolated life. I think you meet few people who are interested in finding out facts and drawing conclusions.People who are thinkers are not so touchy. They are interested in WHY you think what you do. Maybe you have some facts they don't know about.

I have only a handful of friends like that and I value them. Thinkers help YOU to think even if they don't agree on everything. I am one of those purist Tea Party types you mentioned. One of my favorite friends is ultra liberal. But we can have an intense discussion and she, like me, has facts that she bases her opinions on. She isn't a parrot. People like that are good for us. They help our thinking skills, even if they disagree, because they force us to think. You can really explore a subject with them. I have another set of friends here in BA who see things my way and they are great for discussion too because they bring interesting and sometimes surprising new facts to the table that I had not even heard yet, and vice versa. What fun! I hope this makes sense to somebody. It does to me!

You sound like an intelligent guy who is interested in more than tango! Good for you.

 

[Dipoots]

.... Thinkers help YOU to think even if they don't agree on everything. ....

Try reading this book, The Power of Quiet.

 

[GS_Dirtboy]

I watch people in conversations. Some people simply counter conversation points with their opinions. Others ask opinionated people why they think the way they do. I like having conversations with people of the second group. Those conversations are much more interesting.

 

[Crema Americana]

I once heard someone close to me exclaim that you shouldn't be put on the 'veraz' if you pay your bills late. (That is like saying you shouldn't have poor credit for repeatedly paying late.). I think that was one of my most wtf moments into the Argentine mind. I realize not all feel the same way, but the whole concept of consequences seems foreign at times. Many do what they can get away with in the moment, and I think that translates into their expectations of the government as well. Stealing, cheating, scheming... getting into massive amounts of debt you can't get out of... (which incidentally has become popular in the US as well.)

Frankly I think the US has earned its bad reputation from policing the world and sticking our noses where they don't belong, so the imperialism criticism in respect to Syria doesn't bother me. It's just too bad some of that analysis of what a government should or shouldn't do isn't applied to Argentina.

Most people don't know what they're talking about... myself included at times!

https://www.youtube....be_gdata_player

 

[arlean]

Crema Americana I smile at you. One of the most important discoveries we can make, I think, is that WE could be wrong. That attitude is what it takes to learn from each other, I think. After all, if I am sure I am always right, WHY should I care what YOU think? See what I mean. Good for YOU!

 

[El Mayoman]

What is the media's role in all this? I have no idea what the Argentine/South American media landscape looks like, but keep in mind they shape a large portion of our perception of the outside world. This holds especially true for foreign news; if the media chooses not to cover foreign news very often, and if it does, it isn't exactly the best journalism, then you have one of the major causes of widespread ignorance and misconceptions. If the Argentine media consistently frames their news in terms of winners and losers, good and bad, moral and immoral, then what you described would be a direct consequence of this, I believe.

Another important factor is a country's own history and the way it is linked to (emerging) nationalism. From what I've gathered - and this is before I've even moved to Argentina - the locals are very nationalistic; or rather, patriotic. They're critical of their own government but very proud of their heritage and culture. The country is, after all, constantly competing with Brazil - in economy, politics, sports, and so on. That's another thing that creates the "us versus them" point of view.

Speaking as a European, this is exactly how we generally perceive people from the US as well. The unfortunate stereotype is that they're ignorant and, while well-educated and intelligent, are just unable to show any empathy with people from other countries all over the world. They create their own politics and expect the rest of the world to follow suit. Again, let me clarify this is just the general perception and - ironically enough - it stems from the more ignorant Europeans, who will dismiss all things American because of these misconceptions. And then there's the fact that we often think the same of the European powerhouses: the UK, France and Germany. Just saying this to illustrate that these are the generally accepted views I grew up with, and which I always heard people in my home country say. When living in other European countries, these views changed (obviously Germans think less of the French than, say, the Belgians do).

I think it's natural that we perceive these attitudes as ignorant, uneducated or too simplified, but that's just coming from our own cultural and political background too. I get your frustration though, cause I never understand why people can be so against or for something - there's always flaws or advantages to everything!

 

[EdRooney]

Perhaps the best part about being an expat is it gives you an outsider's perspective into your own culture. For example, arriving in Argentina, it's easy to see how braindead Argentine political debates generally are, and how manipulative the media is. It is easier for us to see this because of our outsider's perspective. But then turning that perspective on its heels shows that looking at our own home countries the debates, we should be able to see that they are just as braindead and the media is just as manipulative.

A quick example: a friend visited from the EEUU with his grandmother. Granny fell ill one evening, so we took advantage of the free health care system here. The doc patched granny up, and my buddy asked her what she thought about health care being free, and she said "it sure seems nice, but I wouldn't want some government bureaucrat making a decision about whether I live or die."

Our Argentine friends were utterly baffled on hearing this. It made no sense whatsoever to them because they have not been indoctrinated into the braindead debates up in The Empire.

Trying to explain the differences between a Republican and a Democrat to an Argentine is pretty much like trying to explain what the Radical, Peronist or Socialist parties are to North Americans: it can be done, but you're probably better off just cracking open a bottle of Quilmes and debating whether it tastes great or is less filling.

So I would just say if you're going to accuse the Argentines of not understanding politics, at least have the humility to preface it by saying how dysfunctional it is in your home country too.

 

[lamarque]

What is the media's role in all this? I have no idea what the Argentine/South American media landscape looks like, but keep in mind they shape a large portion of our perception of the outside world. This holds especially true for foreign news; if the media chooses not to cover foreign news very often, and if it does, it isn't exactly the best journalism, then you have one of the major causes of widespread ignorance and misconceptions. If the Argentine media consistently frames their news in terms of winners and losers, good and bad, moral and immoral, then what you described would be a direct consequence of this, I believe.

Another important factor is a country's own history and the way it is linked to (emerging) nationalism. From what I've gathered - and this is before I've even moved to Argentina - the locals are very nationalistic; or rather, patriotic. They're critical of their own government but very proud of their heritage and culture. The country is, after all, constantly competing with Brazil - in economy, politics, sports, and so on. That's another thing that creates the "us versus them" point of view.

Speaking as a European, this is exactly how we generally perceive people from the US as well. The unfortunate stereotype is that they're ignorant and, while well-educated and intelligent, are just unable to show any empathy with people from other countries all over the world. They create their own politics and expect the rest of the world to follow suit. Again, let me clarify this is just the general perception and - ironically enough - it stems from the more ignorant Europeans, who will dismiss all things American because of these misconceptions. And then there's the fact that we often think the same of the European powerhouses: the UK, France and Germany. Just saying this to illustrate that these are the generally accepted views I grew up with, and which I always heard people in my home country say. When living in other European countries, these views changed (obviously Germans think less of the French than, say, the Belgians do).

I think it's natural that we perceive these attitudes as ignorant, uneducated or too simplified, but that's just coming from our own cultural and political background too. I get your frustration though, cause I never understand why people can be so against or for something - there's always flaws or advantages to everything!

Totally agree.
About the people that think that the Argentines K are ignorant, (many times I think it as well but sometimes I get s surprise and one of them actually give me a good argument and even let me thinking), first you have to know where their support to the K come from, sometimes they have been benefited personally, others they have experiment a big increase in their standard of life, and they just think that is because of the government and some other times they just have a fake anti Imperial stupid ideology (for bad luck EEUU make it easy to this group taking the decisions they do toward the world). The true is the K government has done good thinks specially Nestor when Lavagna was his minister of economy, then the power got to their heads as always seems to happen in this country and he kick lavagna and well then Kristina arrive and make thinks even worst to a point that i can barely believe (same for Menem, good first 4 years but then when the change was needed he was in love with his model but more important the people was in love with the model so he decide to keep going, when finally they realize that the iceberg was in front of them and they had to turn the direction, was to late "Cavallo suggestion to make a basket of currencies pondered by the importance for the Argentine market was not a bad idea but was to late and to less to avoid the crash"). So there is the history of the Modern Argentine boom and crash cycle.