20 De Diciembre..dia De Saqueous??

[jackbower]

Last night I went for a walk on cabildo to clear my head. I was pretty surprised to see one police officer standing on every single corner of cabildo on both sides of the street. That means four officers for every city block. It was somewhat strange since the police in the Capital usually are pretty low profile but I guess its necessary to keep the shop owners and patrons feeling safe. I honestly hope people get prosecuted for these recent riots, the thieves and the police who left their post. It won't happen of course.

 

[pitipur]

Updated security warning I received last night -- seems to be a blackout/looting combo this time!!

Communications/Technology: Blackouts to continue through Dec. 25 in Buenos Aires, Argentina due to ongoing heat wave. Expect traffic and business disruptions; protests possible.
This alert affects Buenos Aires
This alert began 19 Dec 2013 01:41 GMT and is scheduled to expire 26 Dec 2013 11:00 GMT.

• Incident: Sporadic blackouts
• Location: Metropolitan Buenos Aires
• Duration: Ongoing through Dec. 25
• Impact: Traffic and business disruptions; heat-related health risks; possible protests

Summary
The Buenos Aires metropolitan area will continue to experience sporadic blackouts through Dec. 25 due to an ongoing heat wave. Increased strain on the electrical grid has caused ongoing power outages, leaving tens of thousands of residents across the city without electricity. On Dec. 18, government officials announced they will implement planned power cuts on a rolling basis throughout the city in order to prevent overtaxing of the electrical grid during peak energy usage.

Neighborhoods in the northern and northeastern parts of the city (map) appear to have been most affected by the blackouts.

Weather forecasts predict that the heat wave will continue through Dec. 25, with temperatures projected to reach nearly 38 C (100 F) on Dec. 23 and 24. Expect additional sporadic and government-mandated blackouts through the duration of this heat wave. Although Buenos Aires has experienced power outages in the past, continued blackouts during this heat wave may have severe health consequences as the loss of electrical power has stopped water pumps that supply drinking water from functioning. Power outages may also render traffic signals inoperable, likely leading to traffic disruptions. Blackouts may continue to disrupt business operations; tens of thousands of businesses have lost power.

Additionally, angry citizens may hold spontaneous demonstrations as the power outages continue. While such demonstrations are likely to remain peaceful, low-level clashes between protesters and police are possible.

Background and Analysis
The blackouts have angered many citizens. During the night of Dec. 17, many residents staged protests against the power outages. Meanwhile, 30,000 businesses affected by power outages are demanding compensation for lost revenue and food products. Cabinet Chief Jorge Capitanich blamed private utility companies for not investing enough in the power grid while government opponents claim years of government subsidies and price freezes have prevented necessary upgrades and maintenance to account for increased demand.

Advice
Avoid all protests. Use extra caution when driving. Drink plenty of fluids. Stock up on non-perishable food items and bottled water. Keep battery-powered devices charged.

 

[nicoenarg]

Ed,

Thanks for explaining what you meant by Stalinism. Any general comment thrown out saying "Its Stalinism", to me is no different than someone saying "its Nazism!".

Like I said before I didn't mean to argue it out till the end of time so this is going to be my last post here, seeing as we've already hijacked this thread plenty and I have no interest in making this thread another 65 page long one with back and forth posts that don't seem to affect or benefit anyone else here, we can continue in PM or you can open a new thread on this topic if you'd like.

My whole argument has been to say the following:

1. I don't understand why they'd burn couches, that is not constructive at all.
2. I understand their want to protest whether the way they're protesting is the way I would protest or not.
3. I don't think their protesting is pointless, without a goal.
4. I don't think protesting in anger and frustration hinders any sort of grassroots group from forming.

Do note that I was the one who posted about the whole fire thing in the first place. We agree on 1, we don't agree on 2, 3 and 4.

As to 2, I'll be honest, you come across as someone who's grumpy because you couldn't get your sleep when you wanted it. In other words, you want them to protest the way you think they should be protesting. And I do understand the point about everyone wanting to get some quality sleep: the day people were getting shot and killed in Cordoba and Tucuman, on my block there were loud cheers and celebrations by K minions for "30 years of democracy" since I live about 50 meters from a La Campora office. As much as I hate the Ks, I still thought it was fine that I had to wake up to their mindless chanting. There were people yelling at them to shut up from other buildings so its not like I was the only one who's sleep was disturbed. They have the right to celebrate/protest just like everyone else at the time of their choosing.

But my point is this, if people have to worry about everyone's sleeping schedule before they can protest then you will never have anyone protesting. Like I said before, 2001 didn't happen overnight, I can guarantee you that if you asked around about a couple of years before 2001, there'd have been plenty of grumpy people who just wanted to sleep while the boludos kept making noise outside.

You seem to be very comfortable with questioning the people's motives for protesting ("they want everyone to do as they want", did you ask them whether that's what they wanted?) but the thing you're complaining about is exactly what you are doing, since you want them to do like you'd do things or want things done.

I saw mothers out with their babies, babies who had sweat all over their faces, I'd be worried if those mothers put your sensibilities before their children's well-being.

3. Their protesting has a very specific goal, they want power and water back. Their goal, in fact, is crystal clear. The figuring out of means to get to that goal are the responsibility of government officials who've effed the whole thing up in the first place. They whine about investment, but they're the ones taking the incentive out of the whole deal by keeping prices to levels that are bound to incur a loss for those who invest. So people are protesting the government (both city and national) because they're not doing what they're supposed to be doing and their failures directly affect the people and the people want the government to fix what they were elected to fix. Again, whether it was six people or six thousand, doesn't make their goals less clear or less legitimate.

4. While I don't think protesting in anger and to vent frustration is the road I would take if I wanted to protest against something, it is neither illegitimate nor a hindrance to formation of larger groups. You seem to be suggesting that because people are protesting in anger, larger groups can't form. That makes no sense at all. Maybe these folks don't have a clue on how to organize. Maybe they have given up because nothing positive has ever come, in their lifetimes, from wasting time and energy on peaceful protest. You had millions of people peacefully protesting last year, what did the government do? Nothing. If those millions had started setting things on fire, then we'd have a completely different picture. Its how much noise you make is what matters in this country. And people who are constantly not heard are in a habit of raising their voices when they want to be heard. And that is what these people are doing. If you want them to organize better, try talking to them yourself and see where it takes you. Maybe they'll take your suggestions. But I doubt they're reading this forum with the two of us talking it out back and forth.

If there is a grassroots group waiting to announce their formation but are not doing it because "oh those people protesting in anger are stopping us from doing it", then like I said before, I hope that grassroots group disbands because they seem to be one of those "my way or the highway" kinda people, plenty of those in power already.

Another thing that I've said repeatedly is that big groups form out of smaller splintered ones. That's how a big grassroots movement takes hold. If there were, all of a sudden, a big grassroots group formed from one day to another without any smaller protests of frustration then I'd be very careful about giving it my support since that would look more like an organized political party than a grassroots movement. Whether pro or anti K, I would probably stay away from it.

Anyway, I could keep writing but I'm going to stop. Enough to read on it already and I think you have better things to do than to waste your power (electricity, while you have it) on reading my posts.

 

[Gringoboy]

Olivos at Maipu and Corrientes 11 am today.
They've been without power since Tuesday.

 

[EricLovesBA]

I was thinking recently about how blockading the streets has some fairly strong parallels with guerilla or terrorist types of activism. The protest is general and not focused at specific powers involved such as the utility company or a government office. Yet, similar to terrorism, there is a specific goal - a non-powerful or disenfranchised group drawing attention to their specific problem or agenda. When the bus routes are stopped, this stops the flow of work and effects a much larger group of people who in turn are angered by the entire situation and at least to some extent blame and associate the entire mess with the politicians in power whose incompetence can readily be traced to the problem at hand. The powers that be do not want this negative association so they apply pressure to correct the problem.

In my zone it's quite annoying and occasionally a bit dangerous when the streets get blockaded. In worst case scenarios, buses stop running. if you're driving it's like finding your way through a maze of old dirt streets looking for one that is not blocked, with the thick smell of burned trash and plastic hanging blackly in the air. You turn down one narrow lane and find a fire at the end, turning your car around and hoping you don't slip into a ditch or run into any shady characters ready to take advantage of the situation. At night time it can look a bit like Escape from New York. Generally only pedestrians can pass, and cars or buses may get rocks thrown at them if they try to go through. It's usually because of power grid problems, and it does seem that the protests speed up repair work.

I think they do it partially because of anger and boredom, but also because it may be the most effective way they know of to reach their goal.