22% of the UBA medical students are foreigners

[FrankPintor]

All the doctors and nurses and xray techs are Bolivian, Paraguayans, Brazilians, etc. and I'm not just talking about public hospitals like Rividavia, but also private ones like Favoloro and Britanico too.

Absolutely true, even in a clinic like ICBA most of the nursing staff are non-Argentinian.

Do these people think students from these countries will take on debt to go to school here, and then stay after college working for pitiful salaries in the public hospital system? All the Argentine graduates of UBA sure as shit don't, they move to Spain or the US as soon as they can, especially in recent years.

I'll disagree with you here, I've known Colombian and Brazilian medical personnel. The Colombians were medical technicians, and were in no hurry to go home. The Brazilians were recently graduated doctors, and were able to get lucrative "guardia" work (it pays well because it's often overnight, stressful, and difficult to reconcile with a family life); they were also in no hurry to go home.

Of course, the current economic situation will have affected their calculus, it's a bit ironic really.

- Remain in the country for say at least 10 years?
- Maybe they can reduce this to 5 years if they go to the areas with the most need for doctors? (Rural Jujuy/Salta/Chaco/Patagonia, poor parts of GBA, etc.)

We need more doctors, not less in Argentina, but hey, let's cut off our noses to spite our faces apparently...

Difficult to implement, I think. Are you going to take their passports away? If someone wants to leave, they'll leave.

 

[FrankPintor]

There are foreigners studying at UBA hence the declaration!

Non-resident foreigners?

Remember, from https://batimes.com.ar/news/argenti...or-use-of-universities-public-hospitals.phtml

"National universities will be able to charge fees to non-resident foreign students, said Adorni on Tuesday, assuring that this will represent a fresh source of income for institutions".

 

[QuilmesSlo]

I admire kids trying to get ahead in life.

I also admire people in authority who have the gumption to say no.

 

[Lanick]

Enough to pay a minimum tax rate on my minimum wage part-time job - which I would consider my fair share for free university education and healthcare that I enjoyed in my country at the time.

Exactly! In your country!! You’re entitled to it even if you don’t pay any taxes. It’s the nation’s responsibility to its citizens, not to foreigners.

 

[FrankPintor]

Exactly! In your country!! You’re entitled to it even if you don’t pay any taxes. It’s the nation’s responsibility to its citizens, not to foreigners.

States have international obligations too: regarding Mercosur, for example, citizens have the right to free movement, residence and employment throughout the bloc and in the five associated countries. Citizens can obtain "temporary residence" of up to two years in another country of the bloc. Before the expiry of the term of "temporary residence", the interested parties may request their transformation into permanent residence.

Of course, we can imagine the reaction of Milei and his clique to the fact that they completely missed their target: leave Mercosur.

 

[antipodean]

Exactly! In your country!! You’re entitled to it even if you don’t pay any taxes. It’s the nation’s responsibility to its citizens, not to foreigners.

Not quite. In my country the law does not really discriminate between citizens or foreign residents in terms of access to these kinds of things other than for foreigners needing to be a resident (and thus tax payer) for a certain amount of time prior to having access to them in most (but not all) cases. (Hell, it even allows foreign tax paying residents without citizenship to vote in elections...)

The only way to get residency or actually live there as a citizen is to pay taxes which are near impossible to avoid no matter how much or little income one has unless one is literally living on savings without so much as earning interest (even the student allowance - a little extra money given to me by the government to help face the very high cost of living and low income during study - was taxed at like 17%, while any money my parents would give me to support me was hit with a kind of gift-tax over a pretty small threshold... ) In theory as a citizen alone one could never actually live there and as such avoid paying taxes there but still enjoy these free services when they go to visit, but after a few months of being there you'd be back to paying taxes there again which in practice limits any advantage of being a citizen versus simply being a resident.

It also has a lucrative and successful market targeting foreign students (e.g. short term residents) from countries that don't have some kind of special reciprocal agreement with it, who come to use and are required to pay for access to state owned high schools, universities and hospitals.

So at the end of the day all residents (whether citizens or not) are paying for these services regardless of whether they actually use them or not, or how rich or poor they may be, while short-term residents who come just to enjoy these services and leave again must pay outright for them. Unlike in Argentina, there everyone actually pays something towards them and naturally as a result these services work well enough that even foreigners are willing to travel and pay for them.

 

[Lanick]

There are many universities free for international students in Europe as well. They attract what is called brain migration from non EU

States have international obligations too: regarding Mercosur, for example, citizens have the right to free movement, residence and employment throughout the bloc and in the five associated countries. Citizens can obtain "temporary residence" of up to two years in another country of the bloc. Before the expiry of the term of "temporary residence", the interested parties may request their transformation into permanent residence.

Of course, we can imagine the reaction of Milei and his clique to the fact that they completely missed their target: leave Mercosur.

I’m sure they don’t count Mercosur citizens as foreigners.

 

[nikad]

I have never understood the complaints about this, have these people ever been to a hospital in CABA?

All the doctors and nurses and xray techs are Bolivian, Paraguayans, Brazilians, etc. and I'm not just talking about public hospitals like Rividavia, but also private ones like Favoloro and Britanico too. Do these people think students from these countries will take on debt to go to school here, and then stay after college working for pitiful salaries in the public hospital system? All the Argentine graduates of UBA sure as shit don't, they move to Spain or the US as soon as they can, especially in recent years.

My personal opinion is that since society needs doctors, and they're a social good, their education should be paid for by the state provided they:

- Remain in the country for say at least 10 years?
- Maybe they can reduce this to 5 years if they go to the areas with the most need for doctors? (Rural Jujuy/Salta/Chaco/Patagonia, poor parts of GBA, etc.)

We need more doctors, not less in Argentina, but hey, let's cut off our noses to spite our faces apparently...

@nikad I'm curious to here your POV as a practicing nurse here

Not everything and everybody are the same to be honest. I have had many classmates and colleagues from other countries. On one hand Argentina has always attracted immigrants from neighboring countries, that have settled, are perm residents, had children that were born here, etc. Being a doctor or a professional in healthcare has always been prestigious among locals and in Latin America in general. These people are here to stay and are happy working locally.

Then you have students that plan ahead and come study for free or very cheap with the sole idea of returning to their home countries or moving onto Europe/US. This is a problem for sure, but it is mostly propaganda atm. With 50% of the population being poor, I think there are other priorities right now, however it is fair that they are going to be charged.

This is a country built based on immigration and an influx of cultures and I am proud of it. At the same time, Argentine that work in healthcare do not feel they are being paid well. They are still prestigious but at the end of the day a truck driver is making more money, so they are trying to move to Europe, Canada, etc. I don't think this is bad. More it is sad. I would love to see well paid professionals after a decade or more of studies and accountable for people's lives and health.

Social regarding is important. Money is important. Healthcare workers have to balance things out to avoid becoming health merchants. This is becoming increasingly difficult to handle, not just in Argentina but also in other places such as the US. Globalization and the internet have made the world so much smaller that it is essential that governments plan accordingly. I believe the key is reciprocity.

 

[retiredbanker]

I admire kids trying to get ahead in life.

I also admire people in authority who have the gumption to say no.

Kids getting ahead in life at your expense!

 

[Quilombo]

Not everything and everybody are the same to be honest. I have had many classmates and colleagues from other countries. On one hand Argentina has always attracted immigrants from neighboring countries, that have settled, are perm residents, had children that were born here, etc. Being a doctor or a professional in healthcare has always been prestigious among locals and in Latin America in general. These people are here to stay and are happy working locally.

Then you have students that plan ahead and come study for free or very cheap with the sole idea of returning to their home countries or moving onto Europe/US. This is a problem for sure, but it is mostly propaganda atm. With 50% of the population being poor, I think there are other priorities right now, however it is fair that they are going to be charged.

This is a country built based on immigration and an influx of cultures and I am proud of it. At the same time, Argentine that work in healthcare do not feel they are being paid well. They are still prestigious but at the end of the day a truck driver is making more money, so they are trying to move to Europe, Canada, etc. I don't think this is bad. More it is sad. I would love to see well paid professionals after a decade or more of studies and accountable for people's lives and health.

Social regarding is important. Money is important. Healthcare workers have to balance things out to avoid becoming health merchants. This is becoming increasingly difficult to handle, not just in Argentina but also in other places such as the US. Globalization and the internet have made the world so much smaller that it is essential that governments plan accordingly. I believe the key is reciprocity.

Thank you for sharing your prospective.

I have a friend who is a surgeon from Venezuela, went to school there, moved here, and now he works in a guardia as a walk in physician because while he loved being a surgeon, he makes more money this way via overtime, and now he and his boyfriend are looking to run a small health food store because they'll make more money doing that, it's just sad, but I don't blame him, he wants to help people, but as you said, you've got people without the prestige out earning doctors/nurses out earning both, and that includes myself.

I didn't even finish university, but because I work in tech I earn more than a doctor. The focus needs to be, in my opinion, making doctors from Argentina or abroad stay in Argentina. If these changes even result in 1 less doctor, I personally feel that is a massive mistake by the government. It's penny wise and pound foolish just because some people in society hate Paraguayans and Bolivians coming here and getting "free" stuff, as if UBA lets anyone be a doctor without working for it.