ARG ranks 49 in Human Development Index

Working 12 hours a day is not rare when you start working and have no laws to protect you. In scandinavian countries, this is plain impossible, the legal and social environment wouldn't allow it, even by minus 20 degrees.
In my opinion Argentina actually has too much legal protection, which translates in little protection in the long run. I mean, legally an Argentine employee is very well protected (heavy indemnization for firing someone even with a reasonable cause, health care, income per child, etc.).

And while this might sound good, is this very excessive "protection" the main reason why 40% of the argentine workforce is unofficially hired (en negro), and as such get not protection at all.

Uruguay has always been something of a regional anomaly, I'm sure some Argentines could make some interesting contributions as to why.
Uruguay always had a better quality of life. Mostly, like Chile, it has a reasonable set of moderate political class that doesn't try to found the country and start from scratch every 10 years or so.
Also a significant amount of unemployed uruguayans (significant for uruguay) come to Buenos Aires where the are more opportunities. This is bound to have a positive impact in Uruguay´s quality of life.
 
iStar said:
So your quality of life is so good because of cheap labour?

How about the quality of life of these people who are not earning enough to feed their families?

This is why articles like this are important to remind countries like ARG that they can do better.

Do you pay your maid the same as you would in a western country? Or any of the other people you employ? I think it unlikely. Would you prefer to pay the same for dinner as you would in London for instance? If you did this money would trickle down to peoples' families. If you don't then stop being so sanctimonious. Of course your quality of life is better if you have dollars and pay in pesos!
 
Uruguay always had a better quality of life. Mostly, like Chile, it has a reasonable set of moderate political class that doesn't try to found the country and start from scratch every 10 years or so.
Also a significant amount of unemployed uruguayans (significant for uruguay) come to Buenos Aires where the are more opportunities. This is bound to have a positive impact in Uruguay´s quality of life.

I was actually referring to the suicide rate, Uruguay has consistently been among the very highest in Latin America, but maybe the two are related.
 
Miles Lewis said:
Do you pay your maid the same as you would in a western country? Or any of the other people you employ? I think it unlikely. Would you prefer to pay the same for dinner as you would in London for instance? If you did this money would trickle down to peoples' families. If you don't then stop being so sanctimonious. Of course your quality of life is better if you have dollars and pay in pesos!

I don't have a maid. Never have and probably never will.
I don't employ anyone either.

Here's what I do, do.

I volunteer my time x2 a week teaching children English because I believe knowledge is power. And these kids families can't afford school books never mind English lessons.

I support street vendors selling fruit and vegetables.

And I've even been known to buy Burger King meals for that mother with her hungry children sitting outside on the street begging for money.

I'm no Mother Teresa, I'm just one person trying to make a difference and in the process saving myself...

You know... not all expats are here in Argentina to exploit cheap labor & cheap dinners.
 
I always thought that high suicide rates in Norway and surrounding countries had a lot to do with lack of sunlight during the winters and some issue related to something the body needs to produce a certain chemical, related to sunlight. I know when I was in Scotland the freaking nights were LONG during the winter. Sunrise like at 10:00 am and sunset around 4:00 pm if I remember right.

Also, countries in SA that have, say, a low happiness index AND a low suicide rate could be because the people who are unhappy are those who are poor (usually the majority) and come from a long line of poor people who are used to "their lot in life" and live much more difficult lives than those in countries with high happiness indexes. They are simply used to a more difficult life and have overcome all manner of shit already just to be alive.

People in richer countries, even most of the poor there, have no real idea what poor is next to these truly poor people.

As far as paying people the same as you would in your home country to do similar labor - it makes no sense int he long run. It's not your responsibility to solve the country's issues and the cost of labor is what it is. In my opinion, it hurts no one to pay more than the going rate, which is almost always still cheap, and treat the workers with respect. You will brighten their lives while they work with/for you at the very least and in the meantime you can take advantage of the lower labor costs without feeling guilty.

I once got into a small argument with one of my Argentino programmers. He was all hot and bothered because he saw a documentary on Indonesia and how some workers were being paid and housed. As in many of these documentaries, they don't tell the whole truth. The workers were making something like $5 a day and were being housed in small dormitories which my programmer likened to cages.

My first remark was that I bet those who had the lodging in the small dorm rooms were doing a lot better then their counterparts who were living in a grass hut that leaked air and rain and possibly blew over in the wind. The $5 a day was probably 10 or 20 times what they were earning on subsistence farming and they were probably able to support their family much better on what they were making. And finally, they weren't being rounded up and forced to work as slaves - there were not enough slots for all the people who wanted those berths.

My programmer said "yeah, but it's still taking advantage of them." So I asked him - "do you feel like I'm taking advantage of you?" He looked at me and answered "of course not. You pay me very well. In fact, you pay me better than any other Argentine company would pay me or someone with my skills. And I'm not living in a cage."

First, he and his girlfriend lived in what I considered a cage. A one bedroom apartment, barely 35 square meters, in a 30-40 year old building. Terrible wooden floors that hadn't seen a renovation probably in all that time. No laundry room of course. A den and kitchen combination. No closets. A tiny bathroom that one could barely move in to close the door. No balconey, but a window that opened to a noisy street.

I paid him $22 US an hour. I hired him away from a company who, even for Argentina, was paying him too low of a salary at $13 US an hour. I let him know that the same job in the States, depending on experience and other factors, could be as high as $80-$90 US an hour without stretching, and I know a couple of people who make more than that. I asked him again if he thought I was taking advantage of him and if he thought the people in Indonesia that were making $5 US a day and living in clean, albeit small, lodgings were being taken advantage of. Thinking about it again, he got my point.

You can't come in and start paying people outrageous (to them and their countries) salaries. But paying more than normal and respecting them at the same time helps them quite a bit more than if there were no job, or a job at the usual rate under the usual conditions.
 
ElQueso said:
I always thought that high suicide rates in Norway and surrounding countries had a lot to do with lack of sunlight during the winters and some issue related to something the body needs to produce a certain chemical, related to sunlight. I know when I was in Scotland the freaking nights were LONG during the winter. Sunrise like at 10:00 am and sunset around 4:00 pm if I remember right.

Yes. That is exactly right and what I was going to write about. There is also a high suicide rate among the people who live in way north Canada. Switzerland has a relatively high suicide rate too. But people forget that "assisted suicide" is not illegal there. Aren't statistics fun! ;)

I paid him $22 US an hour. I hired him away from a company who, even for Argentina, was paying him too low of a salary at $13 US an hour. I let him know that the same job in the States, depending on experience and other factors, could be as high as $80-$90 US an hour without stretching, and I know a couple of people who make more than that. I asked him again if he thought I was taking advantage of him and if he thought the people in Indonesia that were making $5 US a day and living in clean, albeit small, lodgings were being taken advantage of. Thinking about it again, he got my point.

You can't come in and start paying people outrageous (to them and their countries) salaries. But paying more than normal and respecting them at the same time helps them quite a bit more than if there were no job, or a job at the usual rate under the same conditions.


A husband of a friend of mine was quite angry when he found out that they pay Argentines 40% of what they pay for teh same position in Europe. He decided that the company was taking advantage of him. So what did he do? Well, he quit of course. Now he makes a living stringing together electrician jobs here & there (and hanging out at his wife's studio) instead of a steady IT job that paid a GOOD salary for here, but a bad salary if you lived in Europe.... Is he better off waiting for someone to pay him what they people in Europe? Did he take into account it costs at least that much more to live in Europe? ((shrug))
 
ElQueso said:
I always thought that high suicide rates in Norway and surrounding countries had a lot to do with lack of sunlight during the winters and some issue related to something the body needs to produce a certain chemical, related to sunlight. I know when I was in Scotland the freaking nights were LONG during the winter. Sunrise like at 10:00 am and sunset around 4:00 pm if I remember right.

I think you are correct.. you too Mini :) The highest suicide rates in Canada are from the northern cities (Edmonton, Whitehorse & Yellowknife)

Alaska also has a very high rate vs. other states.
 
Seasonal Affective Disorder is certainly an influence but Norway's numbers aren't that bad (neither were Sweden's even during its peak years in the 70's) - there are numerous countries above it and several that have suicide rates more than twice as high (Russia, Lithuania, Belarus, Slovenia, Hungary, Kazakhstan, Latvia). So we can say, yes there is a general pattern of wealth and economic development and geographic locality affecting suicide rates but nothing trumps being a former communist country newly transitioned to capitalism through shock therapy.
 
Moxon said:
Seasonal Affective Disorder is certainly an influence but Norway's numbers aren't that bad (neither were Sweden's even during its peak years in the 70's) - there are numerous countries above it and several that have higher suicide rates by an order of magnitude (Russia, Lithuania, Belarus, Slovenia, Hungary, Kazakhstan, Latvia). So we can say, yes there is a general pattern of wealth and economic development and geographic locality affecting suicide rates but nothing trumps being a former communist country newly transitioned to capitalism through shock therapy.

Of course in the late 70s early 80s SAD was more & more accepted as a treatable disease & thus people were able to get help with it... I really don't think ABBA contributed to the problem. However, the fact they kept winning Eurovision is quite desperate! ;)
 
I have lived in Norway for 14 years. Lack of sunlight has always been pointed to as a contributing factor. However; the culture surrounding alcohol must also have something to do with it.

While some countries may have higher per capita consumption, few get drunk like the Norwegians, Swedes and Finns. The norm is: Zero alcohol Sunday through Thursday, blind drunk the rest of the week.

If you look into the numbers, I will bet you will find that most suicides are committed on Fridays and Saturdays.

Neil
 
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