Argentina and Uruguay - alike, yet different

Dougie

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There was corruption in the past, there still is, such as Christina Kirchner amassing over 100 million dollars after coming to power with her husband, all thanks to a "successful law business", some estimate of her wealth, which is probably mostly in black: https://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-politicians/presidents/cristina-fernandez-de-kirchner-net-worth/
Agreed, exactly why I wrote - "What you say is very true though about the hypocrisy of the new groups that come into power and then repeat the same corruption that they had decried by the previous group."

Your comment may seem to justify the "anticapitalistic" government measures as if the evil rich get their pay back. In reality the money grabbing measures are just ordinary thievery and it hurts honest Argentines much more than corrupt ones. Maybe you live in a bubble, but I have seen honest people's life and future destroyed by this government and I left the country because I did not want to be a victim myself.
How am I justifying an anti capitalistic government? I haven't said anything about if I agree or not with the economic policies of the current administration, which by and large, I don't.

What the dictatorship did was incredibly anti capitalistic and thievery. I know many in the financial industry here, partners in well known banks, who had to flee and their assets were confiscated by the junta. Farmers who had their land confiscated because it was deemed strategic. Property rights is the foundation of capitalism.

A lot of these families that stole assets through the power of the state, continue to live off of the state. They are rent seekers, nothing more.
 
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FrankPintor

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What the dictatorship did was incredibly anti capitalistic and thievery. I know many in the financial industry here, partners in well known banks, who had to flee and their assets were confiscated by the junta. Farmers who had their land confiscated because it was deemed strategic. Property rights is the foundation of capitalism.

A lot of these families that stole assets through the power of the state, continue to live off of the state. They are rent seekers, nothing more.
I don't have that much history here in Argentina, but what you say rings true: my happily divorced Chilean ex (well, I'm happy at least) could point to plots of ground all over the area of Los Rios and Los Lagos in the south of Chile to places that had been expropriated or compulsorily acquired by the military government there. Quietly, over time, they had 20 years or so, gun to the head if necessary, but not like an "Expropiese!!" chavista cadena. They built some bloody nice lake view villas on their ill-gotten ground.
 

Tres Picos

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Today for example we have a situation where the government of Argentina claims to represent the victims of historic state oppression in Argentina but supports state oppression today in its ally Venezuela, who in turn condemns its own dictatorships that came before it. Just different groups doing the oppressing in slightly different ways calling themselves different things to make themselves and their friends richer at the expense of their people
Of course, why go through all that trouble to take power if you don't gain a material benefit over your peers?

Democracy is virtually always fake, certainly the current systems claiming to be so are. They are in fact oligarchies.
This commenter Ries says some interesting things and means well but his mindset is from the last century -- the 1900s! Reminds me of my parents in the 80s. LOL
That leaves us with autocracy vs oligarchy. Of course there are no pure autocracies (Louis XIV?) so we're talking about a spectrum. IMO the advantages of autocracy generally outweighs the drawbacks, especially in the long term (e.g. 50+ years) and especially when compared to an oligarchy fraudulently posing as a democracy!


When social attitudes change like this, it signals there is less tolerance towards corruption in general including in politics and business.
I assume your objective is to increase per capita wealth. Is this correct? Corruption is only *weakly* correlated with per capita wealth when you factor out confounding variables. Anyhow, if you're hoping for changes in attitudes towards corruption, you have some problems:
1) the attitudes you describe are significantly affected by genes.
2) your entire culture will change as well (e.g. les joie de vivre).
3) you can't just wish it but have to set certain incentives, as in reproductive ones!

But before proposing solutions, it would be nice to specify exactly what the problem is. If it's lack of per capita income/wealth, then how much would satisfy you?
 

antipodean

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Of course, why go through all that trouble to take power if you don't gain a material benefit over your peers?

Democracy is virtually always fake, certainly the current systems claiming to be so are. They are in fact oligarchies.
This commenter Ries says some interesting things and means well but his mindset is from the last century -- the 1900s! Reminds me of my parents in the 80s. LOL
That leaves us with autocracy vs oligarchy. Of course there are no pure autocracies (Louis XIV?) so we're talking about a spectrum. IMO the advantages of autocracy generally outweighs the drawbacks, especially in the long term (e.g. 50+ years) and especially when compared to an oligarchy fraudulently posing as a democracy!



I assume your objective is to increase per capita wealth. Is this correct? Corruption is only *weakly* correlated with per capita wealth when you factor out confounding variables. Anyhow, if you're hoping for changes in attitudes towards corruption, you have some problems:
1) the attitudes you describe are significantly affected by genes.
2) your entire culture will change as well (e.g. les joie de vivre).
3) you can't just wish it but have to set certain incentives, as in reproductive ones!

But before proposing solutions, it would be nice to specify exactly what the problem is. If it's lack of per capita income/wealth, then how much would satisfy you?
I am not drawing a link between per capita wealth and corruption as I don't see that much of link. Not sure where you are getting that from the word "Tolerance"?

But since you mention it, Argentina ($9k-ish) sits in 78th place on the global corruption perceptions index, alongside Bahrain ($25k) and Solomon Islands ($2k). Whereas Uruguay ($16k) sits in 21st place alongside the UAE ($43k), followed closely by France ($40k), Bhutan ($3k) and Chile ($14k) - still ahead of the USA ($65k) in the 25th place.

Am not sure there is much data or research to draw a correlation with "genes", reproduction or joie de vivre either?
 

Tres Picos

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I am not drawing a link between per capita wealth and corruption as I don't see that much of link. Not sure where you are getting that from the word "Tolerance"?
Hello antipodean, I did not mean to suggest you linked the two. I was trying to make 2 points in response to much of the thread and your post was the most interesting one so I replied to it.
1) There is general sentiment in this thread that there is something terribly wrong with Latin America. What is it that is wrong was never specified. So I assumed the concern was economic because that's mostly what people care about at least in our present day debased state. Before we try to come up with diagnoses (e.g. Ries with the dictatorships or yourself with corruption) it would be nice to know what we are complaining about.

2) Even if social engineering were desirable it would be a lot more difficult to achieve than assumed. Cultures are built on genes, history, etc. Furthermore, a culture is dynamic ecosystem and altering one aspect of it necessarily affects other aspects of it which may not be desirable.

Am not sure there is much data or research to draw a correlation with "genes", reproduction or joie de vivre either?
There is copious evidence that *all* behavioral proclivities are heritable.
 

Pensador

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I can tell you as fact most people in Uruguay do not have a favorable attitude concerning Argentinians they do not like them, they tolerate them. URU is tired of the economic problems ARG continues to cycle through causing problems in the region. They are also deeply insulted that many Argentinians seem to think URU is just another providence of Argentina. Uruguayans to so different from Argentinians and that is not to say I like one over the other it just is what it is. I prefer the fact that in Argentina it is easy make friends and have many of them here that is not the case. I have friends here but it takes time they are not as open as Argentinians. So many differences and just a river between them.
 
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