Argentina and Uruguay - alike, yet different

on the brink

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Ries

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To me, the author is right that most of the problems in Argentina are due to inflexible conservatives, not crazy socialists.
 

Dougie

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To me, the author is right that most of the problems in Argentina are due to inflexible conservatives, not crazy socialists.
Isn't the interviewee saying the problem is that the Argentine right is so ineffective and weak that they can't properly build a movement?

I view the problem not one so much of conservatives vs socialists, but rather the deeply rooted institutional corruption and clientelism of mainly the Peronist party...within that party you obviously have some right wing politicos like Pichetto, non ideological opportunists like Massa, and socialists.
 

Ronnie Hotdogs

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The author of the article shouldn’t get too much on his high horse either.
Uruguay is like a mini Panama for the region.
Whether the lack of a ‘grieta’ is down to good politics or a geographic advantage is debateable.
 

Ries

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Isn't the interviewee saying the problem is that the Argentine right is so ineffective and weak that they can't properly build a movement?

I view the problem not one so much of conservatives vs socialists, but rather the deeply rooted institutional corruption and clientelism of mainly the Peronist party...within that party you obviously have some right wing politicos like Pichetto, non ideological opportunists like Massa, and socialists.
The interviewee says that both the peronists, and the military dictators, had the same problem- a top down heirarchical management style derived from Mussolini, and a refusal to compromise or share power in any way. Micromanaging single unions for entire industries, and controlling them, was one of his examples of how the peronists and the military did things the same way. And, since the 80s, we can substitute the same ogliarchial families that supported and enabled the military, now instead supporting and enabling Macri and other similar politicians.
"right" and "left" dont really apply here- instead the division is between the ridgid power structure, be it moneyed families or peronists, and the horizontalidad idea of modern pluralistic models like community run organisations, unions truly responsive to their members, and so on.
All the established politicians seem to be convinced they can continue to install leaders, instead of allowing democratic, bottom up, control of communities and unions.

I see some truth in this.

Uruguay does, indeed, have more democratic processes to make decisions and share power.
Plus, they drink more mate.
 

Ronnie Hotdogs

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If you made mar del plata and a surrounding area (equivalent in area to Uruguay) independent and made it a tax haven I’m sure you’d have a fairly successful little state.
 

antipodean

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The interviewee says that both the peronists, and the military dictators, had the same problem- a top down heirarchical management style derived from Mussolini, and a refusal to compromise or share power in any way. Micromanaging single unions for entire industries, and controlling them, was one of his examples of how the peronists and the military did things the same way. And, since the 80s, we can substitute the same ogliarchial families that supported and enabled the military, now instead supporting and enabling Macri and other similar politicians.
"right" and "left" dont really apply here- instead the division is between the ridgid power structure, be it moneyed families or peronists, and the horizontalidad idea of modern pluralistic models like community run organisations, unions truly responsive to their members, and so on.
All the established politicians seem to be convinced they can continue to install leaders, instead of allowing democratic, bottom up, control of communities and unions.

I see some truth in this.

Uruguay does, indeed, have more democratic processes to make decisions and share power.
Plus, they drink more mate.
Agree with the description of the power structure, however, I am not convinced it is the root cause nor that it is a problem of conservatives vs. "socialists" by any means.

Perhaps Uruguayans nowdays just have more realistic, flexible, and altruistic attitudes that are more in tune with the modern world and their state reflects that?


Meanwhile here in Argentina, I would generalize the people's attitudes as being uncompromising, stubborn and egotistical with a focus only on maintaining their own status-quo or comfort. For example, we see this in common behaviors from all walks of life:

- when people don't pick up their dog poop but then they complain about people not doing their job.
- when people get pulled over for speeding and try to charmuear or bribe the officer to get away with it but then they complain about corrupt politicians and bad drivers.
- when people don't wear masks correctly because it is uncomfortable but then they complain about getting COVID.
- when people don't declare income but then they complain about the state not having money to help them.
- when people want to protect their jobs but then they complain about the high price of consumer goods.
- when people beep at you to breach the speed limit because there are no cops around but then they complain about impunity.
- when people want to use more and pay less for energy and then complain about power cuts.
- when people complain that their own business struggling due to a lack of customers and then they go shopping in Miami.
- when people wave a green flag but then abuse their own family member for wanting an abortion or to live in a same-sex relationship.
- when people champion a more inclusive society but then hire their friend, cousin, brother or son to do a job or provide services.
- when people vote for a politician suspected of corruption but then decry another politician suspected of the same thing.
- when people huff and puff at the time they spend in the supermarket line and then insist on asking 1000 questions and paying in cuotas over 3 different cards to benefit from every possible discount when it is their turn to pay.
- etc, etc, etc

In short, it's always someone else's problem. Not sure these attitudes really differ that much between the big city and the interior either.
As a result, the democratically elected politicians and the state structures that they espouse will just be a reflection of these values until said values change. Then to perpetuate the cycle, politicians will naturally propagate maintaining this power structure in order to stay in the job. This in turn leads a big chunk of people, who do not question things, to believe it is the "right" way - like a football fan who always believes their team is the best.
 
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