Argentine Mirage F1 Buy Reportedly Stalls

[camberiu]

Hey Camberiu,

My only source for Brazilian public opinion, Latinobarometro, has had public support for MERCOSUR at around 55% through 2011. Do you have a better (maybe more up to date) source? It's fine if it's in Portuguese.

Thanks!

Ed

Hi Ed,

Unfortunately I don't have more recent surveys. But the anecdotal evidence is quite overwhelming. The frequent news on the media of Brazilian products being barred into Argentina, in clear violation of the Mercosul treaty, has really soured the mood in Brazil. Editorials from business leaders or even Unions urging Brazil to leave the block have become very frequent. If I see any more recent survey, I will for sure forward it to you.

http://br.noticias.yahoo.com/cal%C3%A7adistas-brasileiros-criticam-bloqueio-argentina-produtos-175712441.html
Sao Paulo 6 Jul (EFE). - The Brazilian Association of Shoe Manufacturers (Abicalçados) on Monday criticized the blockade imposed by Argentina to their products, a decision that caused an estimated $ 20 million loss in recent months, said Efe its president, Heitor Klein.

 

[franksredhots]

That is arguable. You don't need a fighter jet capable of flying twice the speed of sound to catch planes smuggling drugs across the border. The existing Pucaras or Pampas could do that job. The problem is that Argentina right now has no radar covering the border, so they are effectively blind. That is an issue that these planes will not solve.


Yes, Brazil does want Argentina to beef up its military, but I am not sure about footing the bill. This would be politically very costly. Brazilian people in general are getting feed-up with all the handouts being made to Argentina and the majority feel that it is time for our neighbor to start pulling their own weight. The public opinion has already turned against Mercosur and I doubt that they would react well to even more subsidies to Argentina.


These are not piece of crap planes. They may not be the latest, but these are still pretty contemporary aircraft. The Mirage 2000 is on the same league as a F-16C, and are still the mainstay defense planes of countries like India, Greece, UAE, Taiwan and even France. So they have sophisticated sensors and fly-by-wire electronics that need to be maintained. Once you compute all the maintenance and fuel, these planes on average cost about US$8,000.00 per hour to fly. That is not pocket change, specially for a country like Argentina. And politically, it would be a hot potato for Dilma to have Brazil footing that bill.

first of all, you're making alot of assumptions. I never said Brazil will foot the bill. I said Brazil could help with training and maintenance and that Argentina could use existing Brazilian sites to maintain the planes, thereby reducing over all costs. Again, its just a assumption. I don't know what a final deal will look like. Second, the f-2000c models Argentina would get are nowhere near what the modern f16s are. These planes are largely outdated. The countries that you speak of are mostly flying modernized versions or are in the process of either retiring or modernizing their fleet to the mk-2 standard. And lastly Mercosur isn't going anywhere. Just because certain interests in Brazil might not like Mercosur doesn't mean the vast majority of people dont. That's like saying the same about the EU, where public opinion is even worse. You poll any of those countries and the vast majority of people want out. That doesn't mean its going anywhere. Mercosur public opinion is much better in comparison. Trust me people in Brazil care much more about the 100 billion being thrown away on Brazils world cup and Olympics than any money or trade preferences being given to a sister nation. Bottom line Argentina needs more modern fighters, this is just a stop gap and its a very sensible one. With Chile having the new 60D block f16, Venezuela with its su 30mkv and Brazil getting the new gripen ng, Argentina upgrading to a dozen old f 2000s is perfectly frugal in comparison.

 

[GS_Dirtboy]

I understand the fascination with jets but I'd have to say with a limited budget and no air-war on the horizon for Argentina this is ego-money. Yea, everyone wants jets but Argentina really can't afford them and does not really have a mission for them. They would be smarter to purchase some Pilatus PC-21's, outfit them for interdiction missions, and give their pilots flight time. A cool jet sitting in the hanger waiting for parts does nothing to keep your pilots' flight skills current. And, a pilot going into combat in a cool jet with limited flight time is quickly a dead pilot.

 

[Crema Americana]

Jets?? That's about the last thing Argentina needs. How about trains, boats, commuter planes, or heavy machinery for industry? If smuggling is the problem, then better radar systems and equipment. As far as I know, you don't catch smugglers by shooting them out of the sky.

You know, practical things. But since when has Argentina been practical?

Reminds me of the people that don't have much cash, but have to have a BMW... even if it's from the 90s.

 

[camberiu]

Yes, it is a pure ego buy. No matter if they buy the F1s from Spain, the Mirage 2000 from Brazil or the Kfir from Israel, it will all end up stored up on a hangar somewhere and be restricted to doing brief flights during national holidays or other patriotic events.

They would not even need to buy the Pilatus PC-21s. The Pucaras and the Pampas made in Argentina are more than enough as border enforcers against outlaws. And the flight hour on a Pucara costs a couple hundred dollars vs. thousands on any of the jets they are looking to buy. If they were rational, they would simply retire the remaining A-4s and Mirage 3 (before someone dies on them) and rely on the Pampas and Pucaras, which are actually good and inexpensive planes, moving forward.

Pucara

Pampa

 

[Matiasba]

In my opinion people who sell weapons has a lot of power. Is the second or the third bussiness around the world, so they have a lot of power. They do create wars. They work as a net. Every government around the globe suffers of some kind of pressure from them. Every seller has the support of their State, so they oblige the countries to buy, even thos who are 100% peaceful and will not have a war like in 100 years. So if one country updates its weapons, they must sell what they have. So you are constantly buying and selling weapons. Every country must spend money in that, with the excuse of a potential war.

 

[camberiu]

So Matias, even the fact that Argentina will buy planes that it cannot afford or need is someone else's fault?

Why am I not surprised?

 

[franksredhots]

I understand the fascination with jets but I'd have to say with a limited budget and no air-war on the horizon for Argentina this is ego-money. Yea, everyone wants jets but Argentina really can't afford them and does not really have a mission for them. They would be smarter to purchase some Pilatus PC-21's, outfit them for interdiction missions, and give their pilots flight time. A cool jet sitting in the hanger waiting for parts does nothing to keep your pilots' flight skills current. And, a pilot going into combat in a cool jet with limited flight time is quickly a dead pilot.

you know who can't afford cool gets? the USA. that isn't stopping them. a dozen old mirages aren't going to break the bank, and their pilots could use some flight time in a more modern jet, I understand that money can be better spent elsewhere, but that can be said about every country in the world, it isnt stopping their warmomgers though. ad it shouldnt stop Argentina either. like I said, a dozen old fighers is frugal in comparison to the trillions the rst of the world is spending with their fake fiat money, money they can't afford to spend.

 

[franksredhots]

Jets?? That's about the last thing Argentina needs. How about trains, boats, commuter planes, or heavy machinery for industry? If smuggling is the problem, then better radar systems and equipment. As far as I know, you don't catch smugglers by shooting them out of the sky.

You know, practical things. But since when has Argentina been practical?

Reminds me of the people that don't have much cash, but have to have a BMW... even if it's from the 90s.

Argentina needs a couple of these babies.

 

[camberiu]

Argentina needs a couple of these babies.

For the sake of argument, let's say you are right and Argentina does need a few Sukhoi Flankers for its air force. How do you propose that they pay for that? Argentina has no international credit to speak of, so it can't borrow money to buy those planes. It has less than 30 billion dollars in reserve, which means that even companies Google or IBM have more cash than Argentina. So, how would they even buy something like that?