Atlantic Conveyor

[camberiu]

On May 25 1982 the Argentine Navy delivered a devastating blow to the British Task Force trying to retake the Falklands. Two ASM-39 Exocet missiles fired by Argentine Super Etendard aircrafts managed to strike the cargo ship Atlantic Conveyor. The ship, loaded with critical supplies and equipment for the landing of the British forces in the islands was quickly consumed by flames. 12 British sailors lost their lives, including the ship's captain. The Atlantic Conveyor was the first British merchant ship lost to enemy fire since world war II.

 

[ghost]

And how did that work out for the Argies?

 

[camberiu]

We all know how history played out, but that is not the point.

That was a watershed moment that completely changed the existing notion of naval warfare at the time. The major navies of the world were ill prepared to deal with small, self-guided sea skimming missiles fired at stand-off range, like the Exocet. If the Argentines had say, 24 Exocet in stock, instead of 5, they probably would have, despite of all of their poor planning, defeated the British by ravaging their task force from a distance.

 

[Gringoboy]

Even Admiral Woodward had to concede that it was a close run thing.
That picture still sends shivers down my spine.

 

[GS_Dirtboy]

The Exocet was a force multiplier. Normally, one aircraft was a very manageable threat to surface ships. But strap an Exocet underneath and now you have an entire task force within the missile's range having to adjust and defend for the threat.

 

[Redpossum]

The Exocet was a force multiplier. Normally, one aircraft was a very manageable threat to surface ships. But strap an Exocet underneath and now you have an entire task force within the missile's range having to adjust and defend for the threat.

The big question is, have the admirals learned anything from this? Based upon what I saw working for a defense contractor in the mid-90's, where we developed one component of the Aegis system, and also upon the naval construction in western navies in the 20 years since then, I'd say no. If the West ever decides to attack Iran, the US 5th Fleet will be in serious trouble. If an open conflict erupts in the South or East China Sea, the USN is headed for outright disaster.

The aircraft carrier is a fine tool for military adventures in the 3rd world, but entirely obsolete in any conflict with a nation of even approximately equal capabilities. Because saturation is the key word. The US persists in building a small number of incredibly expensive ships, many based upon new systems and technologies than simply do not work.

And even the smaller ships suffer this inevitable bloat and mission creep. Look at the status of the Arleigh Burke class destroyers, at 2 Billion USD each, and of a size comparable to heavy cruisers of the WW2 era. Or look at the Independence class LCS, which began life as a design for a cruise ship, for the love of god, and revealed over 2,000 deficiencies in the first review by the board of inspection and survey. Originally slated to be 700 million USD apiece, they are now creeping up over a billion USD per unit. For something the size of a frigate. How many can the USN afford, at that price?

Now compare that to the ships of the Chinese PLAN, which are cheap enough and robust enough to be built by the dozens.

Procurement drives planning, and procurement in the western navies is not driven by military logic, but rather by defense contractor lobbying.

 

[GS_Dirtboy]

I would agree. When I was deployed on carriers I knew if TSHTF I would need to find an airfield somewhere because the boat wasn't going to be floating when I got back. It was one of those things I mentally calculated. How many DF-21's can China put into flight all at the same time? Do we really think our fleet defensive array will be able to deal with multi-layered attacks including ballistic missiles?

I also agree that defense contractor lobbying drives military thinking. We see the same issue with the JSF. The damn thing hasn't been completely tested and we are already in production. Contractor lobbying also drives foreign policy. We got all these whiz-bang gadgets sitting around so we gotta use them, right?

 

[Hybrid Ambassador]

Yesterday, two of Japan's self defense Air, aerial reconnaissance crafts were closed-in as close as 20 metre in proximity
in the Senkaku island vecinity by the PRC air force Su-35 ! The PRC are playing this game dangerously !

https://www.google.com/search?q=china+Su+22+jet+fighters+pics&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=QIqDU-LzDMyFogTznoHgDg&ved=0CC0QsAQ&biw=1378&bih=737#q=AF%20Su-30K&tbm=isch

 

[Redpossum]

Yesterday, two of Japan's self defense Air, aerial reconnaissance crafts were closed-in as close as 20 metre in proximity
in the Senkaku island vecinity by the PRC air force Su-35 ! The PRC are playing this game dangerously !

https://www.google.c...Su-30K&tbm=isch

I won't quibble over the difference between the Su-35 you referred to, and the Su-30 pictures you linked, given the confusion in numbering, and that they're both developments of the Su-27. I will just say, damn that Sukhoi design group sure does have a distinctive style!

The PRC is being aggressive because they think they can get away with it. The USA is massively over-committed, and being far too aggressive with too many different people in too many different places. This in itself is rather perplexing behavior. Either Uncle Sam has finally gone totally senile, or he has one hell of an ace up his sleeve. It's enough to make one wonder about orbital weapons, and whether those "meteors" that hit Russia recently were really meteors, or a demonstration of capability. If the latter, the bear doesn't seem to be much intimidated.

So the PRC is flexing its muscle now, while they have a window of opportunity, or think they do. After all, possession is 9/10's of the law, and if China can present the West with a fait accompli in the South and East China Sea, what is the West going to do about it? Asian politics being what they are, the little tigers will all fall in line if China appears to be winning. And it's not like Malaysia, Vietnam or Brunei can do anything.

Japan has made a serious mistake in depending upon the USA for its defense.

 

[Hybrid Ambassador]

I won't quibble over the difference between the Su-35 you referred to, and the Su-30 pictures you linked, given the confusion in numbering, and that they're both developments of the Su-27. I will just say, damn that Sukhoi design group sure does have a distinctive style!

The PRC is being aggressive because they think they can get away with it. The USA is massively over-committed, and being far too aggressive with too many different people in too many different places. This in itself is rather perplexing behavior. Either Uncle Sam has finally gone totally senile, or he has one hell of an ace up his sleeve. It's enough to make one wonder about orbital weapons, and whether those "meteors" that hit Russia recently were really meteors, or a demonstration of capability. If the latter, the bear doesn't seem to be much intimidated.

So the PRC is flexing its muscle now, while they have a window of opportunity, or think they do. After all, possession is 9/10's of the law, and if China can present the West with a fait accompli in the South and East China Sea, what is the West going to do about it? Asian politics being what they are, the little tigers will all fall in line if China appears to be winning. And it's not like Malaysia, Vietnam or Brunei can do anything.

Japan has made a serious mistake in depending upon the USA for its defense.

Yeah? Mistake..Whoom, but no body else than the mighty empire to go against the emerging tiger, the PRC and its massive people count. So Japan has no way else but to depend on US military prowess and its pact with uncle sam is the only rope for time being. The Russky wants to entice Japan to join them but for now a long shot. Japan has no recourse but to be allied to
the 7th fleet ! Now the self defense air force of Japan has been inclining towards the..
https://www.google.c...idates&tbm=isch