Brazilian Armor For Argentina

[camberiu]

The Brazilian Army just delivered a single VBTP-MR Guarani Armored Fighting Vehicle to the Argentinian Army for a 40 day evaluation and trial. The VBTP-MR Guarani is a Brazilian newly designed and built armored combat vehicle, and Argentina is considering buying several dozen units to help re-equip and modernize its dilapidated and outdated armed forces. I am not sure where the funds for the purchase would come from, as each unit costs north of a a million dollars a pop, but hey, what do I know. Maybe Cristina will use them to suppress further protests or ship them to Ghana to try to get the Liberdad back.

Source of the news (in Portuguese) here

http://youtu.be/UZtKXM-e0z4

 

[Iznogud]

They couldn't make it taller, couldn't they? Definitely not impressed.

 

[camberiu]

I thought it looked kinda heavy at the top too. Overall, at least in terms of ascetics, it looks very disharmonious. I don't know much about military design, but to the untrained eye, it looks like the vehicle and the turret where designed completely separately, without taking into account any integration between the two. Then, they simply stuck the parts together the best way they could. I am not a military engineer and I could be completely wrong about the whole thing, but this is the impression I get.

 

[el_expatriado]

Not impressed. I'll stick with the M2 Bradley IFV. Here's what an IFV is supposed to look like. And here's the damage it can do:

1. 25 mm cannon (200 rounds / min, accurate up to 2.5 km)
2. twin BGM-71 TOW wire-guided missiles (for taking out other tanks at up to 3.5 km)
3. coaxial 7.62 mm medium machine gun (crowd control)

I'll stick with American made, thank you very much. Go team USA!

 

[camberiu]

Yes, I think the project requirements for the IFV and the Guarani are a little bit different, and so are the costs constrains on both projects. First off, Brazil does not face nor expects to face a massive tank conflict in an European scenario, like the US did when the IFV was first designed. Second, the USA can politically operate within a "fiscal cliff" and carry 75 trillion dollars in unfunded liabilities, so it can spend all sorts of money building an IFV. In the Brazil of today, the government or the Army has no such luxury. The electorate demands some sort of fiscal sanity, so design a super armored vehicle without any consideration to the price tag is out of the question. Armored vehicles build for the Brazilian army need to be affordable to buy and cheap to maintain. A tracked vehicle, like the IFV is neither. The IFV is actually so freaking expensive to buy and own, that besides the US Army, only Saudi Arabia had money to acquire it. The Guarani, on the other hand, is being considered by Uruguay, Paraguay, Argentina, Chile, Colombia and Ecuador.

So no, the Guarani was never designed or intended to compete with the IFV in price or to trade fire with it.

 

[el_expatriado]

Actually for heavy tank warfare we have the M1A1 Abrams tank. Here you can see one taking out a few city blocks of Fallujah.

The M2 Bradley is actually a light infantry support vehicle in the same class as the Brazilian Guarani. They are armored units that are designed to take troops into battle. The Bradley costs about $3 million, so while not as economical, it doesn't cost a trillion dollars either. I think the $2 million extra are justified by its kick-ass chasis and design.

I'm sorry, but the Guarani looks like some of the armored cars I see here on the streets in Buenos Aires. If I saw it on the battlefield I might think I'm going to war against Prosegur :lol: . On the other hand, if I see a Bradley coming at me , I'd be soiling my drawers.

 

[camberiu]

They both have the same mission, but they are not on the same class. It is like saying that a Toyota Camry and BWM 535 are four door sedans. It is true, but they cater to very different markets and have very different price tags. The IFV costs 3 million dollars for almost 5 thousands units produced. The Guarani costs less than half of that, with 2000 units produced. So it takes 4 Guaranis to buy an IFV. This is like arguing which one is better, a Camry or a BMW 535. On the spec sheet, of course the 535 blows the Camry out of the water. But if you have a limited budget, which one is the better buy to accomplish what you need to be accomplished? The fact that no other country but Saudi Arabia ever bought the IFV should answer that question.

 

[camberiu]

Actually for heavy tank warfare we have the M1A1 Abrams tank. Here you can see one taking out a few city blocks of Fallujah.
The M2 Bradley is actually a light infantry support vehicle in the same class as the Brazilian Guarani. They are armored units that are designed to take troops into battle. The Bradley costs about $3 million, so while not as economical, it doesn't cost a trillion dollars either. I think the $2 million extra are justified by its kick-ass chasis and design.

From Wikipedia:
The Bradley IFV was developed largely in response to the Soviet BMP family of infantry fighting vehicles, and to serve as both an APC, and a tank-killer. One specific design requirement was that it should be as fast as the new M1 Abrams main battle tank so that they could maintain formations while moving, something which the older M113 armored personnel carriercould not do, as it had been designed to complement the older M60 Patton.

The Guarani was NEVER designed or expected to be a tank killer. Completely different project requirement, parameters and cost assignments.

 

[Iznogud]

Maybe, just a large hopeful maybe, this thing is suited for some kind of jungle warfare.
Otherwise the tall profille does not suit it for speed and it sticks out like a sore thumb. Nice target I say.

Weapon system does not seem to fit an urban combat environment.
Is Prosegur stirring some shit we're not aware of? I'll keep an eye on them from now on. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[scotttswan]

should have just gone to alibaba and bought this
http://www.alibaba.c...ad_vehicle.html

then stuck a bigger gun on the top.

they can make 200 Piece/Pieces per Month!