Casas tomadas recovered in the city

[Ries]

The laws here are literally napoleanic on subjects like this. The congress could change this.

 

[Shpongle]

Interesting, thanks for sharing. What a shame that it could be temporary if Milei is voted out.

In a SHTF situation, anywhere in the world, your so-called ownership of property is only as good as your ability to physically defend it.
Most people rely on a tricky, possibly unaffordable legal system to defend their land in case of bad actors -- Is that real ownership, on the day when the legal system fails or chooses not to respond?

Perhaps people should start thinking about owning only what they can defend.
I suspect reality will begin to enforce this in the coming years, worldwide.

(It's already true for the majority of Argies out in the provinces -- develop and defend what little you have.)

 

[on the brink]

The laws here are literally napoleanic on subjects like this. The congress could change this.

I vaguely remember hearing "Napoleon's Code" mentioned in High School, but don't know anything about it.

What makes a law napoleonic? I have heard the term but don't know what it means.

 

[LuckyLuke]

Interesting, thanks for sharing. What a shame that it could be temporary if Milei is voted out.

In a SHTF situation, anywhere in the world, your so-called ownership of property is only as good as your ability to physically defend it.
Most people rely on a tricky, possibly unaffordable legal system to defend their land in case of bad actors -- Is that real ownership, on the day when the legal system fails or chooses not to respond?

Perhaps people should start thinking about owning only what they can defend.
I suspect reality will begin to enforce this in the coming years, worldwide.

(It's already true for the majority of Argies out in the provinces -- develop and defend what little you have.)

In a country where firearms are illegal except for those smuggled in criminal networks you can bet that virtually nothing is "defensible" in the way you imply. Argentina is not the USA either, in that it follows legal defense only in proportion to the threat "Legítima Defensa" laws like California, rather than "stand your ground" laws like Texas.

I find SHTF scenarios rather pointless as it implies a failure of the state apparatus, in which case all assumptions of precedence can go out the window. Haiti could be helped were it not for their resistance to the historical interventions of UN monitors. So it stays a failed state overrun with gangs.

 

[FrankPintor]

I vaguely remember hearing "Napoleon's Code" mentioned in High School, but don't know anything about it.

What makes a law napoleonic? I have heard the term but don't know what it means.

You had best ask @Bajo_cero2 but my (inadequate) understanding is that the basis of Napoleonic law is that an investigating judge leads and decides a legal procedure, whereas in "common law", a judge decides a legal procedure based on what a prosecutor and a defence lawyer present to him.

 

[Ries]

Napoleonic Code refers to the French Civil Code or 1804, which was an attempt to write a set of coherent laws to replace the feudal laws that previously dominated France which were erratic, local, and favored royalty.
Napoleon, himself, didnt write any of it, though he helped shepard it into existence.
When Bolivar started the series of revolutions against the Spanish that eventually resulted in Argentina as a country, he, being more sympathetic to French Revolutionaries than Spanish Kings, started a trend of basing new legal systems on the French Civil Code, and much of the initial Argentine legal system was based on it as well.

There are still a lot of 17th century French ideas and processes in Argentine law.

But the idea of squatters is a very 20th century thing, and its common in many places- all across Europe, in NYC or most of South America, as well as in parts of Asia and Africa.
Large scale squats were very common in NYC and Berlin since the 60s, and many were caused by buildings being abandoned by landlords, with extensive back taxes due.
Famous and memorable squats include Freetown Christiana in Copenhagen, thriving since 1971, the occupation of Torre de David in Caracas, which was a $100 million dollar unfinished skyscraper squatted by 1500 families, the Starrett Lehigh Building in NYC, or ST. Agnes Place in London.
So a lot of Cities, globally, have made agreements with squatters, allowing ownership, or at least legal residency.
In Argentina, the Villas date back to before the Second World War- Barrio Padre Carlos Mugica, which used to be Villa 31, was founded in 1932, and it houses 40,000 people, who build their own homes, and, informally, have been able to rent, and even sell them, for decades.
The City long ago gave up on forcibly removing most squatters and villas. An estimated 200,000 people live in villas inside the City limits, who, by definition, are squatters.
On a smaller scale, though, it would be possible to evict individual squatters from privately owned single family apartments, but this government, like all its predecessors, has not had the political will to do this, which, unless they spent heavily to offer replacement housing, would undoubtedly trigger large demonstrations.
The history of the Recuperados, the businesses that were taken over by workers after the Coralito, is a similar story- business owners defaulted on taxes and debts, leaving vacant factories, and the workers refused to stop working- over a 1000 factories at first. Now, 25 years later, a couple of hundred of them are still worker owned and run co-ops, and they are pretty interwoven into the fabric of Argentine life.
Police action to evict squatters is not going to be a popular idea here, and politicians know that.
There have even been popular television comedies about squatters- Okupas was recently revived on Netflix, and its portrayal of squatters is funny and normal, not as evil anarchist criminals.

 

[Ries]

I always wonder about doomers and libertarians thinking that Argentina is going to be a hospitable place for them.
Argentina as we know it, after it was abandoned by the Spaniards due to its lack of Silver and Gold, was settled by left wing workers from Spain and Italy, along with eastern european jews.
All believed strongly in collective action, and socialism.
The big events that shaped the country included the city wide strike, in 1919, instigated by Italian and Jewish anarchist blacksmiths working at the Vasena factory on La Rioja near Boedo.
The two biggest trade Unions at that time, both of which dated to the 1870s, were the Socialists and the Anarchists.
1500 workers died in those riots, over 200,000 people went on strike.
There is one narrative that claims Peron, who was a lieutenant stationed 4 blocks away, made his bones by ordering his men to shoot the strikers- whether or not that is true, his actions during the Semana Tragica began Peron's rise to power, and it reinforced the reality that no government could succeed here without including the extreme left wing workers.
That means the history of workers housing, collective bargaining, union sponsored vacation hotels, football clubs, and cultural centers, and it led, in the eyes of the populace, to the largest and most thriving middle class in South America, in the fifties and sixties.
So the undercurrents here have never been the individual ornery scots-irish loner culture of the USA, which produced the gun waving libertarians and MAGA.
Argentina is about communities supporting each other, and social services, public health care, public universities, and similar institutions are what people here want.
The idea that Argentines are going to "defend" property, as opposed to support each other, is non-starter here.

 

[ArgentinaVet]

In a country where firearms are illegal except for those smuggled in criminal networks you can bet that virtually nothing is "defensible" in the way you imply. Argentina is not the USA either, in that it follows legal defense only in proportion to the threat "Legítima Defensa" laws like California, rather than "stand your ground" laws like Texas.

I find SHTF scenarios rather pointless as it implies a failure of the state apparatus, in which case all assumptions of precedence can go out the window. Haiti could be helped were it not for their resistance to the historical interventions of UN monitors. So it stays a failed state overrun with gangs.

Firearms are not illegal in Argentina and have become much easier to legally obtain since Milei was elected president. A citizen or permanent resident needs to apply for a CLU (certificate of legitimo usuario) which will be granted in 60 days or less assuming you have no criminal record. This is a digital certificate and will appear in the MiArgentina app. Once you have the CLU you can literally walk into a any gun shop (there are many in Recoleta/Retiro area) purchase and walk out with any gun you want and the ammunition in less than 20 minutes. The approval process for CLU holders to buy firearms and ammunition is all digital and essentially instantaneous. A CLU holder is allowed to transport the firearms he/she has purchased and the ammunition as long as the gun is not loaded. The firearm can be legally used to defend the inside of the CLU holder's home with no duty the retreat when inside the home.

 

[LuckyLuke]

Firearms are not illegal in Argentina and have become much easier to legally obtain since Milei was elected president. A citizen or permanent resident needs to apply for a CLU (certificate of legitimo usuario) which will be granted in 60 days or less assuming you have no criminal record. This is a digital certificate and will appear in the MiArgentina app. Once you have the CLU you can literally walk into a any gun shop (there are many in Recoleta/Retiro area) purchase and walk out with any gun you want and the ammunition in less than 20 minutes. The approval process for CLU holders to buy firearms and ammunition is all digital and essentially instantaneous. A CLU holder is allowed to transport the firearms he/she has purchased and the ammunition as long as the gun is not loaded. The firearm can be legally used to defend the inside of the CLU holder's home with no duty the retreat when inside the home.

Interesting...I thought I had read somewhere that legitimate use was limited to professions (security guards, police, etc.) and that civilian home defense was not considered sufficient.

 

[Ries]

whether they are legal or not, I sure am a lot happier not constantly seeing geriatrics packing heat. I constantly see elderly males with firearms at the home depot, or tractor supply, in my rural USA agricultural county where I live half time.
These guys, who are undoubtedly on several kinds of prescription medications, are armed and ready in the hardware store, walmart, or gas station.
In the USA, several times a year, guys (its always men) shoot themselves accidentally on the toilet when their gun falls out of their trousers...
One of the things I like about Argentina is the lack of open carry.
I feel a lot safer.