Citizenship

[Bajo_cero2]

my experience so far has the courts playing pretty loose when compared to migraciones.

The accontant certification is the accepted evidence no question ask while the WU receipts is not accepted by the chamber of appeals. A single case of a biased judge does not proved a rule. A judge can be biased against or in your favor for racial reasons both.

 

[Kula]

Thanks everybody!
They ask exactly " todos los comprobantes" .
1)If I bring certificate from an accountant (which is accepted by the chamber) but in this case I don`t comply with what exactly I was asked for initially.
2) If I bring what they ask for ' los comprobantes' that I understand are receipts will they deny those proofs as the chamber doesn't accept it?

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Thanks everybody!
They ask exactly " todos los comprobantes" .
1)If I bring certificate from an accountant (which is accepted by the chamber) but in this case I don`t comply with what exactly I was asked for initially.
2) If I bring what they ask for ' los comprobantes' that I understand are receipts will they deny those proofs as the chamber doesn't accept it?

If you do not provide the AC you cannot win an appeal, if you provide the WU tickets, there are precedents against them at the Chamber of Appelas. You full fit it or you should hire a lawyer.

 

[lunar]

Thanks everybody!
They ask exactly " todos los comprobantes" .
1)If I bring certificate from an accountant (which is accepted by the chamber) but in this case I don`t comply with what exactly I was asked for initially.
2) If I bring what they ask for ' los comprobantes' that I understand are receipts will they deny those proofs as the chamber doesn't accept it?

The accountant statement route works best for people who are officially employed, work as monotributistas, and if they are getting paid by foreign clients they bring money in in an official way (not via Western Union). If your situation is different in any way, you should be very careful about it, because it can potentially open a big can of worms.

It looks like the court is trying to bring you to the path of least resistance. They say just show us the WU statements. And you are trying to find a reason not to go for it.

 

[Kula]

Which can of worms, for ex?

 

[steveinbsas]

They ask exactly " todos los comprobantes" .
1)If I bring certificate from an accountant (which is accepted by the chamber) but in this case I don`t comply with what exactly I was asked for initially.
2) If I bring what they ask for ' los comprobantes' that I understand are receipts will they deny those proofs as the chamber doesn't accept it?

Although you no longer have most of the the receipts that you were given when you picked up the money in person, if you print out the details of the COMPLETED transactions from the Western Union website, you will actually be printing "los comprobantes" of your transfers.

Whether or not the court accepts them remains to be seen, They probably know the difference between the website receipt ad the receipts that are provided when you ppick upthe funds in person.

If they then ask for the signed receipts, all you can do is tell the truth.

If I was applying for citizenship now, the only comprobantes I could provide would be printouts (or pdfs) with the transfer details from the Wetern Union website...as well as the email confirmations that were sent when I initiated the transfers.

Because the funds were deposited in my Argentine bank account, I could show evidence of the deposits by alos providing my bank statements, but I would rather not put those statements in the hands of anyone other than a contador publico who could certify the deposits.

I was surprised that any court would not ask for the official certification in the first place. If I understand correctly, is a legal requirement. The court may be "trying to bring you to the path of least resistance," as Lunar surmised, but, as Bajo_Cero2 wrote:

If you do not provide the AC you cannot win an appeal, if you provide the WU tickets, there are precedents against them at the Chamber of Appelas. You full fit it or you should hire a lawyer.

I take this to mean that, if for some reason your "sentence" is negative, that failure to provide the certification by a contador publico, you cannot win an appeal of the sentence and you would not become an Argentine citizen.

As I previously indicated, if the court insists that you provide WU receipts that you receive when you pick up the cash in person in Argentina, you would probably have to make additonal transfers in order to supply them.

Even if the court will only accept the comprobantes that are provided when you pick up funds in person, I would at least ask them if they would accept the certification by a contador publico who would be able to examine your bank statements and then be able to certify that the funds were sent from the same bank account shown in the WU email confirmations and the WU website receipts/comprobantes (showing matching account numbers, dates and amounts).

Baed on what Bajo_Cero2 wrote, I got the impression that the certification of the contador publico is accepted (by all of the courts) without question and is absolutely necessary in case of an appeal.

Even if the court is willing to cut you some slack and says they will accept the WU confirmation emails and the WU website comprobantes, If I was in the same situtation I would not hesitate to get the certification by the accountant, especially if the source of my income was something I also had to "demonstrate" to the court's satisfaction.

Perhaps this is what Lunar was thinking about when using the expression "opening a can of worms" in post 155. Someone who is living and working in Argentina and being paid by foreign clients, but not declaring, pesifying, or paying taxes on that income might have something to worry about, but I am not certain.

Bajo_Cero2 has previousy posted that you have to "demonstrate an honest means of living" to the court. If I remember correctly, he also indicated that working in blanco was not a requirement, though obvious tax evasion might not go over so well at the courts.

 

[antipodean]

This last point is surprising that courts can be satisfied by a simple comprobante from WU...
A WU transfer is not proof of having an “honest” means of living. It is simply a transfer from one account to the other. At the end of the day transferred funds could be from working under the table Geneva or peddling drugs on the streets of Shanghai and whether or not this income was subject to additional Argentine taxes/ rules is another chapter of the story and will depend on the tax rules applicable to your current status.

I guess the assumption is that if a public accountant has prepared a summary then they have asked about / verified the source of funds and it is not likely to be money laundering, tax evasion or other “unhonest” acts??

 

[steveinbsas]

This last point is surprising that courts can be satisfied by a simple comprobante from WU...
A WU transfer is not proof of having an “honest” means of living. It is simply a transfer from one account to the other. At the end of the day transferred funds could be from working under the table Geneva or peddling drugs on the streets of Shanghai and whether or not this income was subject to additional Argentine taxes/ rules is another chapter of the story and will depend on the tax rules applicable to your current status.

I guess the assumption is that if a public accountant has prepared a summary then they have asked about / verified the source of funds and it is not likely to be money laundering, tax evasion or other “unhonest” acts??

When preparing the docs for citizenship that I needed in 2011, I provided a contador publico with the copies of the same docs I gave migraciones in 2006 when I applied for temporary residency in 2006 and, just as I did each year for the renewals at migaciones, I also provided three months of ATM receipts whch he verrified were withdrawals in Argentina from my bank in the USA.

If I was applying for citizenship now, I would not have to use the old docs or ATM receipts. I would provide a contador with a recent copy of my Social Security benefits letter, copies of the email receipts which I received immediately after I sent the WU transfers as well as copies of the "completed" transfers from the Western Union website (for at least the past three months or however far back the court requested).

I would also provide the contador (not the court) with copies of my recent US bank statements which would show the deposits made by the Social Security Administration and the debits for the transfers by Western Union. My Santader Rio bank statements whold show the deposits in the exact amount of the transfers.

If I was working in Argentina and billing foreign clients who were paying me in dollars and I was not playing by the rules, I would, as Lunar suggested, be very concerned about openig a can of worms. That is not likely to happen, however, as I don't have clients in any country and I no longer open cans.

 

[lunar]

Although you no longer have most of the the receipts that you were given when you picked up the money in person, if you print out the details of the COMPLETED transactions from the Western Union website, you will actually be printing "los comprobantes" of your transfers.

Whether or not the court accepts them remains to be seen, They probably know the difference between the website receipt ad the receipts that are provided when you ppick upthe funds in person.

Everybody knows that the strength of an argument depends on a quality of paper it is printed on. Printer brand is also very important.
----

I think one of the hidden goals of this exercise is to demonstrate that the person can function in a society on some level. In particular, he should be capable of understand basic requests and comply with them, especially if they are in his interests.

If "bring us WU statements" request seems to be too complicated, raises multiple doubts and causes sufferings, would this person be able to handle something like "flip the hamburgers"?

 

[Millie]

Hi All,
Regarding Citizenship, I was told last year through a friend of mine, who has a good friend who is a judge in Rosario, that in order for me to have Argentine citizenship I needed to renounce US citizenship as they don’t allow both… I am not sure if this is a old law on the books or if the judge simply was misinformed…
Before joining this forum, I was unable to find any info anywhere online in terms of being a dual Argentine- US citizen ….
I am wondering why the judge in Rosario told my friend, who is an escribiana, this. I was surprised to hear it and therefore I never pursued citizenship, only permanent residence….
I wonder how the person got the information they did… can anyone enlighten me and tell me if this was an old law on the books? Thanks for any and all info…