Con Los Peronistas!!

[Bkentfc]

One thing that stands out anytime i have discussions about argentina ,is the fact it has a relatively "educated population".This brings me to a point of reflection where i actually ask myself that if this is the case, then why does the political rhetoric of "lets blame EVERYONE ELSE for our problems" take you a long way here? (no wheels left!)

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-26542445

 

[scotttswan]

There are a large number of highly educated Argentinians, the problem is they fuck off at the first opportunity to Europe/USA/Brazil etc.
I personally know a lot of university graduates who have left over the past few years.

I wonder how many of the people who come for the free university education here stay and how many leave asap.

 

[ElQueso]

It's all relative and a difficult subject.

There are many levels of education here. As far as I can tell, the greater majority does not get a good education (free compuaters notwithstanding). However, I came down to Argentina originally to take advantage of the good IT training that many were receiving here. Of course, that comes from college, not high school.

Many of my oldest sister-in-law's friends (they graduated last year) are not going on to college (my sister-in-law started in UADE on Monday).

The level of education I've seen in high school was not very good and they give so many chances for the kids to make up failed classes that I knew a couple of kids who had as many as 11 subjects (not necessarily classes) that they had to re-take to graduate. There is rampant cheating with little care from the administrators (in the three different schools I've been involved with).

The teachers send the kids to copy copyrighted books with no care to the illegality or morality of that. The teachers for the most part are terrible, with no patience and no control over the students in many cases. One has to employ tutors to get the kids enough information to pass a test. A report on a subject in history, biology, etc, consists of copying material from books and internet and ensuring that the footnotes are correct - there is no originality (i.e., NOT read the book/material and tell me in your own words what you learned, supported with quotes properly attributed where appropriate - it's copy the material and make sure you change the footnotes properly when you change copied sources in your text).

Things like the Falklands/Malvinas and the "Invalid Foreign Debt" are pushed in the schools. They teach the Argentine system of contracts in the business part of school and concepts that support that instead of concentrating on business concepts that a lot of the rest of the world get and showing how the contracts try to support that (impossible job, that, anyway).

Kids run around fairly wild here too - it's much more important to think about when and where the next party is than the test that's coming up. Parties START around 2:00 am, from the time they are 14-15 years old. Graduation parties happen in the middle of the week and the young ones go too (not as many as regular parties on the weekend) and this is so accepted that the schools pass out warnings to the parents before the graduation party season starts that kids found sleeping or being unruly after a party the following day will be sent home.

I don't know, I've heard that schools in the US are pretty bad nowadays. My personal experience in the 60s and 70s was quite a bit different than my experience with my kids in the 90s and early 2000s, but nowhere in those 40 years did I see such a lack of teaching and care about the subjects that I do here.

Having said that, we seem to have a large portion of young folk in the US who are completely clueless about many important things as well. Of course, I watched with horror many of the absolutely stupid things educators are doing in the States while my kids were in school and every year we reap lower and lower results.

It comes down to something simple, really, both here, the US and other parts of the world:

You can teach people to read a WHOLE LOT EASIER than you can teach them to think. People can learn information a WHOLE LOT EASIER than they can learn to work hard and honestly and apply their learning to real-life situations.

 

[Matiasba]

The educational system has been fragmented in the last 10 years. It appeared lots of universities, new universities, certainly not for elite people or upper middle class like UBA or others. Im talking of the universities of the conurbano. Every partido del conurbano (Tigre, La Matanza, san Miguel, Quilmes, San Martin, etc) created its own university, that during the past 10 years recieved a lot of money, mostly from megamineria, and consolidated its place.
The target population of these universities is public high school graduated from that zones. The level is not the best, but lots of proffesors from prestigious public universities went there to teach, research, etc, and it is getting better. Also helped to unzip UBA and other good universities, scholarships, etc.

As for the rest, UBA and others good pubic universities, yes, most of their students travel abroad to continue studying, and then come back, like it happened a lot with programs of this government "repatriar cientificos".

This government invests 6.5% of GDP for education and 1% to Universities. Thats a lot considering past governments invested 2% and less than 0.5% respectively. You have argentine scientists at NASA, very succesful people graduated at UBA today working for other states or big companies, losing every penny this country invested in their education, not making posible the return of this invest. Giving back to the country that invest is something this government wants, thats why all the programmes. But Im afraid we still dont have that much of developed industry, at least not as we used to have, despite these numbers are in fact growing.

We ll see if we can make these specialists stay to postgrade in the country or at least bring them back after they finish their studies abroad.

 

[ElQueso]

We ll see if we can make these specialists stay to postgrade in the country or at least bring them back after they finish their studies abroad.

I think a big problem with people who leave the country after getting a degree is that they see there are actual opportunities for them abroad, and there are relatively few to none here.

Until the thinking of the people changes, which would hopefully change the actions of the government (people get the government they deserve because even in a dictatorship the government exists at the sufferance of the people), you will get more enlightenment abroad than you will here. Why would someone want to study 4 or 5 years of business management and then find that there are relatively no openings in businesses here (a LOT of competition for the few spaces there are, and probably many of the successful candidates know someone who helped them get in), with very little opportunity to open a successfull business here because of all the problems from labor to taxes to corruption?

Same with sciences, et al. You mentioned NASA - that's a great example. Many developed countries have a space program, and Argentina could be just as developed as the US if the people wanted to, but there are no opportunities like that here.

 

[Matiasba]

I think a big problem with people who leave the country after getting a degree is that they see there are actual opportunities for them abroad, and there are relatively few to none here.

Until the thinking of the people changes, which would hopefully change the actions of the government (people get the government they deserve because even in a dictatorship the government exists at the sufferance of the people), you will get more enlightenment abroad than you will here. Why would someone want to study 4 or 5 years of business management and then find that there are relatively no openings in businesses here (a LOT of competition for the few spaces there are, and probably many of the successful candidates know someone who helped them get in), with very little opportunity to open a successfull business here because of all the problems from labor to taxes to corruption?

Same with sciences, et al. You mentioned NASA - that's a great example. Many developed countries have a space program, and Argentina could be just as developed as the US if the people wanted to, but there are no opportunities like that here.

totally agree, we used to be pioneer of Latin America in the space era and all.... but now we lost it. Brazil is waaay more developed than we are, even Chile or Mexico. The same with the aeroplane industry, lotrs of engineer needed there.

The thing we have to keep in mind and that is on our side when talking of bringing back scientist, is not the opportunities, the grade of development here is too low, what may bring them here is their affects, thier original place, everything is familiar here.... so we cant compete of laboral opportinuties, nor the money also, but we can get them from other side... I think a mix would be great, it must be a decent salary, they wont resign a europe/US opportunity to come here to gain less.

 

[ajoknoblauch]

totally agree, we used to be pioneer of Latin America in the space era and all.... but now we lost it. Brazil is waaay more developed than we are, even Chile or Mexico. The same with the aeroplane industry, lotrs of engineer needed there.

The thing we have to keep in mind and that is on our side when talking of bringing back scientist, is not the opportunities, the grade of development here is too low, what may bring them here is their affects, thier original place, everything is familiar here.... so we cant compete of laboral opportinuties, nor the money also, but we can get them from other side... I think a mix would be great, it must be a decent salary, they wont resign a europe/US opportunity to come here to gain less.

Some have managed to do truly cutting-edge research despite the obstacles: http://southernconeg...om-jet-lag.html

 

[ARbound]

the problem is they fuck off at the first opportunity to Europe/USA/Brazil etc

THIS. This sums up why this country is run by assholes and the stupid.

I just chatted with a friend of mine on FB, he runs servers remotely for companies
and is like 20. Where is he? In London, getting everything together to move there
next year.

The Brain Drain here is huge, intelligent people see it's a shithole/becoming one
and are on the next flight out.

A pretty country to visit but it ends there.

 

[ElQueso]

Matias, I think you're right about bringing back some scientists and technical folk, but I'm afraid it won't be enough to do what you need as a country.

People who tend to innovate do so because they love what they are doing. A program that lures these types back will be good, but Im afraid it will only lure back those who are most mediocre or worst, for the most part, without a show from the government and people that things are changing.

I mention this because my best programmer and my second best programmer, who happen also to be a couple, spent the last three years getting residency in the UK because they felt the lack of opportunities here. Fortunately in my business, and in many others of a technical nature, working from a distance is much easier than it was even 10 years ago. These guys were my first programmers here but when things went south with the economy, they went to work for someone else because my projects all dried up. They didn't work for someone here, they got a telecommuting job in the States. But when things picked up again, I was able to hre them away from the other guys because our projects are much more cutting edge and interesting than what they were working on. I could only offer them about 30% of what they were making with their other employers, as well.

They would rather have interesting work and live in a place where there are more opportunities than live in a place with fewer opportunities and a higher salary. The other problem with the higher salary and living here is that the government is doing everything it can to be despotic and look out for the leaders' own interests, which makes a higher salary look a lot less here.

The US is facing similar problems, just not as deep as here yet. More and more government interference to help people who want something for nothing is affecting business there as well.

 

[Davidglen77]

Personally I've worked with some very educated people here who are a product of the Argentine educational system. Academically from my point of view they are on par with people I've worked with in the US. However what lacks here in many cases are: soft skills, business etiquette, sense of urgency in business and not many people I've known are willing to go above and beyond when that is what gets you recognized, if you work for an organization that is serious. Also, incessant complaining and sense of entitlement are other pitfalls I've seen.