Defining Argentina

[perry]

Many of us who live here pernamently are well aware of the problems prevalent in our daily lives rising crime rates, runaway inflation, social problems exarcerbated by drug use These are worrying issues that must be addressed by our government and community .

Saying all that we are also aware that Buenos Aires as a major city is a special place that combines a great mixture of city life with social life. There are many parks and plazas in Buenos Aires that offer a needed respite from the bustle of the city . There is always a coffee shop and a restaurant open at any hour to while away a few hours with friends. Most world cities shut shop at midnight while Buenos Aires just wakes up and goes into full gear around 3 am in the morning.

There are so many positive aspects of our lives here in Buenos Aires and many of us would not trade our former lives in Europe , USA , Asia , or Australia for all the tea in china.

Defining Argentina and Buenos Aires as Third world always has a tinge of racial superiority when spoken by Europeans and other world citizens from the so called FIRST WORLD! A society should not be defined by just its material wealth but also by its quality of life and if you compare the richer countries of Northern Europe, Japan , USA with their high suicide rates their version of the world is shallow to say the least.

Our city has incredible architecture, excellent restaurants and cafes and a cultural life equal to anywhere. Personal freedom and the right to express oneself is high in Argentina . This creates a dynamic society that is never boring to say the least.

Argentina is not the third world but a real world warts and all .

 

[mini]

Defining Argentina and Buenos Aires as Third world always has a tinge of racial superiority when spoken by Europeans and other world citizens from the so called FIRST WORLD! A society should not be defined by just its material wealth but also by its quality of life and if you compare the richer countries of Northern Europe, Japan , USA with their high suicide rates their version of the world is shallow to say the least.

Now YOU are being offensive. I never said nor thought any such thing.

The first/second/third world discussion has already been had on this forum quite a few times if I remember correctly. And in fact I used incorrectly the term in the other thread, as third world is a hang over from the cold war (unaligned countries or whatever).

Anyway, YOU are also from the so called first world so did you somehow change race?

 

[citygirl]

Mini is correct. The "third world" was originally a construct developed during the Cold War to designate non-aligned countries (First World being used to describe NATO affiliates and Second World being used to describe Communist/Soviet-Bloc countries).

It has nothing to do with racism. I'm actually not sure how you made that leap

And in fact, since the end of the Cold War, also as Mini clarified, the first/second/third world terminology is no longer used or accurate. It is and would be accurate to describe Argentina as an emerging/developing economy.

PS - What are you talking about with suicide rates? US is pretty low (as is Argentina) - both are statistically the middle of the pack (11.1 per 100k in the US and 7.9 for Argentina).

 

[nlaruccia]

I don't want to get into the first/second/third world country here. But the truth is, the quality of life is not that good for the majority of the people that live here and earn pesos. Riding the subway and bus everyday that are so full of people you can't even breath; always hiding money in your shoe and looking behind you in case you get robbed, fear of carrying your debit card or of using an ATM, everything breaking after having bought it after only a couple months, are some of the more challenging elements that make it difficult to live here. In terms of comfort and quality of living, Europe and the U.S., as well as many other countries are far ahead in that game. All my Argie friends complain about how bad the quality of life is and how tired and stressed they are. Most people have to work two part-time jobs, have no time for themselves, kids, mortgages, safety issues, plus having to deal with constant black outs in neighborhoods like Caballito, always arriving late to work due to the fact that the subway is on strike, your apartment or house getting robbed and you beaten and sent to the hospital, or standing in line for four hours at a public hospital emergency room. This is no way to live. But the people here have no choice. I think some foreigners love it here because they enjoy the benefits and can leave when things get rough. They have a second home to go to. Try to imagine what it would be like if you didn't have a second home to go to. The government takes away senior citizen retiree funds, you fight in court for two years to get your tenant to pay the rent, you have to put your elderly parents in a geriatrica that is essentially a dump, or your child is killed by a hit and run and there's no justice. I agree that Buenos Aires has its charms. For that very reason many people as well as I choose to live here. I think we choose this for more for cultural reasons than for the comfort of living. But maybe some don't. Some people prefer to have intelligent refrigerators, electric cars, SUV's with TV's inside, iPhones and all the latest digital equipment, plus security and safety. Whereas others are simply attracted to the cultural and social aspects of Buenos Aires. Which are enough to make us stay.

 

[cruizes]

OMG! You don't sound like a good candidate to get a job at at the Argentina Ministry of Tourism.

 

[SaraSara]

Some people prefer to have intelligent refrigerators, electric cars, SUV's with TV's inside, iPhones and all the latest digital equipment, plus security and safety.

A poor trade-off for lifelong friends and caring relatives. Small wonder so many locals choose to stay put.

 

[araucarialanguages]

i'm argentinian ..and i have to admit that i see my country as a 3rd world one just because our way of thinking hasn't developed much yet...we still reject new ideas, ideologies and even research!! we've got a tendency to deny facts and new evidence...

don't really know if all the above mention will fall into the 3rd world country category...but it's to me.

quality life? no good pensions, our grandparents don't get a decent health cover...salaries in pesos...not good enough to make a living...not to mention the amount of people and children who don't and won't go to school due to poverty...
that's the Argentina described by an argentinian...i know it sounds pesimistic and i'm focusing on the weak points rather than on the strong ones... but those are the ones i take into account when i judge a country and it's quality of life.

 

[ssr]

i'm argentinian ..and i have to admit that i see my country as a 3rd world one just because our way of thinking hasn't developed much yet...we still reject new ideas, ideologies and even research!! we've got a tendency to deny facts and new evidence...

This is absolutely the biggest problem I have with Argentina. While people from other Latin America countries tend to complain about Argentine arrogance, it's not really the arrogance that's the problem. The real problem is that, for God knows what reason, Argentines are encouraged to act as if they've got everything figured out at all times, even when they haven't got a clue what they're talking about. If there's one thing that I would tell anyone heading to Argentina for the first time to expect, it's this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

When one chooses to be both ignorant and arrogant, there's really no way forward. And Argentina as a whole will continue to shoot itself in the foot as long as this sort of thing is encouraged. Brazilians are quietly going about making their country into a South American superpower--and building all sorts of advanced technology like the fleet of planes that Aerolineas Argentinas just bought and components for the International Space Station--while Argentines continue to mostly just make noise about how everything is "the best" in Argentina. It's dumb. Argentines need to find some humility fast and start learning from their neighbors.

A poor trade-off for lifelong friends and caring relatives. Small wonder so many locals choose to stay put.

SaraSara, you write often about the benefits of tight-knit families and communities in Argentina, and I agree that these are usually good things, but not always.

My brother-in-law's Argentine mother can't stand visiting her family in Argentina (and, now that her mother has died, she probably won't ever be back). The entire family works for the family company (they put up buildings, I think) and they are all well-educated in their particular fields and have plenty of money (and, from what I've heard, they were seriously rolling in it during the "one-to-one"). But they are also incredibly narrow-minded people and see anyone leaving the family to go live elsewhere as a betrayal. One cousin decided to take a job offer in Atlanta and took his family to the US and the rest of the family threw a fit. When he and his family failed to adjust to life in the US and returned to Argentina, they were met with "I told you so" gloating from the rest of the family and he was given a lower position in the company than the one he left.

Families who provide unconditional care and support, regardless of what an individual family member chooses to do with their life, are good; families full of spiteful, jealous, ignorant jackasses are, well, less good. "Lifelong friends" can also often do a pretty good job of holding one back or, worse, leading one astray. Happening to know someone when you're a child doesn't automatically make them a worthwhile friend when you're both adults.

And close families or communities who are suspicious of, or less respectful of, anyone outside of their circle of trust can end up doing or condoning some pretty dumb things. For example, you wrote the following on that recent dating thread:

From everything I've read here it seems Argentines are very different with foreigners, perhaps because they feel they risk nothing.

They are not likely to pull such tricks with people whose families they know, or who know their own families.

Pretty creepy. And yet another self-destructive Argentine behavior. A foreigner could visit Argentina looking to potentially invest millions in the place but get scammed so much by short-sighted locals that he or she gives up and moves on to Brazil or Chile.

Again, I do think that supportive families and communities are usually good things but you really seem to be painting too rosy a picture of "lifelong friends and caring relatives" in Argentina at this point. I mean, you argued above that, amongst other things, "security and safety" are a "poor trade-off" for the closeness of family and friends. Really? I think plenty of families huddled together in corrupt, dangerous places throughout the world would gladly spend a bit more time apart if they could trust that the people they care about (and everyone else in their country) were safe and secure and had all sorts of great opportunities and laws were enforced equally for everyone and so on.

But, anyway, there doesn't have to be a trade-off. People can have close families AND security and safety AND cool electronic toys AND all sorts of other things. Maintaining all of it requires effort, of course, but the idea that people in developed countries are sacrificing relationships with family or friends in exchange for gadgets or whatever is a bit silly.

 

[mini]

A poor trade-off for lifelong friends and caring relatives. Small wonder so many locals choose to stay put.

It's certainly possible to have both. Although personally I'm not gadget person so that description doesn't appeal to me per se.

The idea that people in US/Europe/Oz don't have family & life long friends is ridiculous.

I'll say it again, I love my life here and I'm grateful for however long we live here. But to denigrate life in other places to make life here look better really baffles me.

 

[billsfan]

quality life? no good pensions, our grandparents don't get a decent health cover...salaries in pesos...not good enough to make a living...not to mention the amount of people and children who don't and won't go to school due to poverty...
that's the Argentina described by an argentinian...i know it sounds pesimistic and i'm focusing on the weak points rather than on the strong ones... but those are the ones i take into account when i judge a country and it's quality of life.

I have to disagree in some items.
bad pensions? this goverment has been raising pensions since the start and they are way too similar to regular wages. In some cases it may even be ridiculous. Trust me, my father worked hard and he cannot complain about his pension (he will of course )
There are pensions even for people that was not employed all their lives.

bad healthcare for the old? Again, My parents (who are grandparents also) may pay 40 pesos extra a month to have "medico a domicilio" from a local insurance company, but they are very happy with PAMI (that's the states' public medical network, all free)... doctors there are used old people (it's their daily work) and hospitals may look "old" but they are ok.

salaries in pesos: yes, that's our currency. What do you want?

I'm really not that pesimistic. We were WAAAAY worse during the 90's. Dollar was 1-on-1 with the peso, everything was slowly crumbling down...big national companies were given away just to make some cash (for themsleves)... it was a disaster.