Defining Argentina

[syngirl]

Many of us who live here pernamently are well aware of the problems prevalent in our daily lives rising crime rates, runaway inflation, social problems exarcerbated by drug use These are worrying issues that must be addressed by our government and community .

[...]

Defining Argentina and Buenos Aires as Third world always has a tinge of racial superiority when spoken by Europeans and other world citizens from the so called FIRST WORLD! A society should not be defined by just its material wealth but also by its quality of life and if you compare the richer countries of Northern Europe, Japan , USA with their high suicide rates their version of the world is shallow to say the least.

Our city has incredible architecture, excellent restaurants and cafes and a cultural life equal to anywhere. Personal freedom and the right to express oneself is high in Argentina . This creates a dynamic society that is never boring to say the least.

Argentina is not the third world but a real world warts and all .

Pericles, how many times have you been outside of Buenos Aires -- I think you realise that there is a huge difference between BUENOS AIRES and ARGENTINA. "Argentina is not the third world...." I think you should replace Argentina there with Buenos Aires, and even then, well it doesn't really work.

Third world -- old term, shouldn't be used. Should be replaced with developing (or under-developed) country.

In Buenos Aires, yes there are pockets of the city that are on par with a city in Europe or the States -- but not Japan, nowhere here is on par with Japan -- most places in Europe or the States are not on par with Japan, Japan is it's own level!

But outside of Buenos Aires, the pockets of developed areas are very small. Outside of a few cities, most of Argentina is not "developed".

Last night on the news they were talking to people who live less than 50km outside of Capital and the government hasn't even hooked them up to the gas grid -- they have to go out and find wood to burn everyday for their heat and cooking. That is NOT developed. Now, granted, these people probably are not paying taxes and probably don't have titles to their properties where they are living (the news report conveniently did not analyze this side of the story), but they are living in conditions that harken back to 100+ years ago in most "developed" countries.

In the north of the country, while tourists are showering in their 5 star hotels in Iguazu, there are families living in government built subsidised housing that don't even having running water (the governement built these houses, and didn't even put in water pipes! That's shocking) They have to buy their water off the truck that passes through the village. This is NOT a sign of a developed country.

Incredible architecture, cafes, plazas do NOT equal a developed country. A developed country (to me personally, I haven't looked up the precise definitions) equals at the very least providing clean water to ALL of your citizens. Argentina does not do this yet.

Argentina provides free education to it's children -- in schools with no glass in the windows, no gas for heat, and insufficient materials for the children. Even inside of capital most of the public schools would fail to meet the standards of a "developed" nation.

Most Argentines I know would not consider the country to be developed. But they would agree with me that there are pockets of development within an under-developed country.

By the way -- the whole "3rd world has tinges of racism" -- I've heard tonnes of Argentines refer to themselves as 3rd world and the States / Europe as "primer mundo"

I will always remember a news story here that made me feel rather sad. They were showing the train in Puerto Madero (the train to nowhere, lol) on the first day it opened -- and the reporter herself couldn't stop saying "Es MUY Primer Mundo!!! MUY MUY Primer Mundo! Es increible!!!"

 

[syngirl]

The idea that people in US/Europe/Oz don't have family & life long friends is ridiculous.

Yes that drives me nuts too. I haven't lived in the same city as my sister and mum in 16 years. Yet compared to my Argentine husband who lives within a few kilometers of his family, I have more intimate conversations with my family than he ever does with his.

My life-long friends absolutely embraced my Argentine husband, and for our engagement party back home my life-long friends organised to buy full Argentine selection uniforms and came into the party all dressed up singing futbol songs they learnt in Spanish to welcome him, and took him out for a "bachelors" night, despite half of them only having met him a few days before and fully made sure he knows he's one of the guys.

His life-long friends? Couldn't even get their sh*% together to throw him a bachelor's -- he had to book it himself in the end and they just showed up and argued about how much money the weekend cost (so much that he ended up paying for most of it). Also frankly, in the 5 years that I have known his Argentine friends, I have never felt accepted the way he has by my supposedly "cold" and "less intimate" Canadian friends and family.

Face time doesn't always equate to quality time.

 

[SaraSara]

It's certainly possible to have both. Although personally I'm not gadget person so that description doesn't appeal to me per se.

The idea that people in US/Europe/Oz don't have family & life long friends is ridiculous.

I'll say it again, I love my life here and I'm grate for however long we live here. But to denigrate life in other places to make life here look better really baffles me.

Mini, you got it all wrong. I meant that's why locals don't leave. Please read my post again and reconsider labeling it as "ridiculous".

I love the US, not for its gadgets but for its myriad good things like working institutions and respect for the law. If my daughter did not happen to live here I’d move back tomorrow.

But the truth is that friendship in America is a completely different animal from friendship in Argentina. For instance, a close American friend almost fainted when I offered to lend her money to tide her over a hard patch. Here, lending and borrowing from friends is common.

I don't know about Europe, but in my forty years in the States I've seen many people drop friends just because they move to a nearby town. Americans move around a lot: every five years, 3/4 of them are living somewhere else. In our twenty-house street in Virginia, people moved in and out all the time, so after eight years we were the ones who had been there the longest.

It is not unusual for a child to have to move three or four times before they finish high school. After losing a few close buddies children learn to keep friendships on a more casual level, making new friends wherever they go and leaving behind the old ones - it simply hurts too much to cling to them.

So, Americans are wonderfully friendly NEIGHBORS, but are not much given to the kind of deep, close, lifelong friendships we know here.

That's why all kinds of clubs are so popular - book clubs, biking clubs, garden clubs, tennis clubs, scouts troops - all provide a group of ready-made friends and create an instant feeling of belonging.

Personally, what I find baffling is to denigrate life here and stay here. Unless, of course, there are personal ties to Argentina.

 

[gouchobob]

I think the definition of Argentina has to be somewhat unique. It went from being a rich country to one less than rich but not as poor as some of its neighbors. I don't first world/third world definitions really fit. In Argentina's case I think a new definition is needed it's a country that's really de-developing. I think the most advanced case of this in the world today is Zimbabwe. It's a country that had a pretty good economy, was a big food exporter. Now its a food importer with an unemployment rate of 90 plus percent. It also suffered a period of very high inflation. Argentina has some catching up to do in the de-developing world but I would point out that inflation here is now the second worse in the world and that meat and some other agricultural products that used to be produced in abundance here now have to be imported. Given time and the current type of government here Argentina could come close to catching Zimbabwe.

People of course will ask why is Argentina trying to become like Zimbabwe, that this is not really desirable result, is it? Of course people have been asking this question here for over 50 years and Argentina's economic decline has continued. In my opinion I don't see any change in the near term. Sooner or later conditions may become so bad that changes will occur, but until then Argentina will remain a leader in the de-developing country.

 

[SaraSara]

Now its a food importer with an unemployment rate of 90 plus percent.

Do you mean that nine out of ten Argentines are out of work?

 

[gouchobob]

Do you mean that nine out of ten Argentines are out of work?

No that's in Zimbabwe, it's probably an unobtainable goal for Argentina today, but a possibility some time in the future with the kind of governments that have run the country now and for the last 50 years.

 

[Alilou]

I totally agree with SaraSara. I personally have always been fascinated by friendships in Argentina. They are so long term. My fiance has friends from elementary and high school still. He may not see them very often... sometimes months but when they reunite, its like they haven't missed a day. I don't think the difference is really cultural. Its just in the US, we move so much that its hard to form lasting friendships... I went to 3 elementary schools and 3 high schools. I never stayed in the same school for more than 2 years. Of course I don't still have friends from that period of my life.

And I think its the same with family... I am incredibly close with my mother. And with my family. But we haven't lived on the same continent for 3 years and in the same state for 6 years (and I'm only 24). I was able to leave and I did basically the second I turned 18. My fiance from the start told me that he would never leave. He sees his family every week. They are SO important to him. Of course, there is a great amount of variety anywhere (super close families in the US, distant families in Bs As) but as a general rule, the relationships here are so much stronger. And its one of the things I love. My kids are going to grow up surrounded by grandparents, cousins, 2nd cousins, aunts and uncles, great aunts and uncles, step grandparents, etc. AND while yes this is a criticism of the US, I'm not trying to make Argentina look better. I didn't come to Argentina because of this but it is something I just so happen to like better here.

 

[SaraSara]

When I took an anthropology course in college I was a so-so student, until we came to a chapter called Kinship Systems. There I shone: I was the only student able to trace relationships in a family tree. All I had to do was place myself in person A, and figure out what person L would be in my own extended family and voila: I knew L must be my second cousin once-removed...!

So I had my fifteen minutes of "fame", courtesy of my extended Argentine clan.

 

[citygirl]

Well - I think friendships are different in the US because of the reasons posted but that doesn't make them less valid.

I have lived in several different cities in the US and obviously now live here. So I don't see my friends and family all the frequently (which is hard). But it doesn't mean I'm any less close to them. We talk on the phone, facebook, email, etc. And I'm 100% positive that if I were in the States or Europe or anywhere that they are, they would happily have me stay with them.

Buenos Aires (well and Argentina in general) are different in that most people stay in the place that they were born. So yes, they have the opportunity to see one another much more often than in many countries. But it doesn't mean that people from other countries don't love and value their family and friendships just as much as Argentines do. We just maintain the friendships in a different manner.

PS - I'm American and have friends from birth, grade school, high school, university, work, etc. They're all over the world, I may not see them very much but we're still in touch. It's not unique to Argentina.

 

[mini]

Mini, you got it all wrong. I meant that's why locals don't leave. Please read my post again and reconsider labeling it as "ridiculous".

I didn't label your post ridiculous I said the idea was ridiculous. Your post was super cryptic. But in the flow of the other posts it certainly could easily have been implied that was what you were saying. Anyway it has been said before many times so it's not "out of the blue".

But the truth is that friendship in America is a completely different animal from friendship in Argentina. For instance, a close American friend almost fainted when I offered to lend her money to tide her over a hard patch. Here, lending and borrowing from friends is common.

There are many people in the US who find this type of thing offensive because they are very independent people.

There are also people in the US who would also make such offers. Argentina does not have the monopoly on good friends or people who help each other out.

I would say however that this type of things is perhaps more unusual in big cities all over the world.

It is not unusual for a child to have to move three or four times before they finish high school. After losing a few close buddies children learn to keep friendships on a more casual level, making new friends wherever they go and leaving behind the old ones - it simply hurts too much to cling to them.'

YES that is unusual. You lived in DC which is a highly transient place. It changes practically every 4 years. DC does not the US make.

That's precisely my point. You can't compare BA "upper & middle class" with EUROPE/US/OZ and you can't say DC=US/EUR/OZ as Perciles is want to do.

Personally, what I find baffling is to denigrate life here and stay here. Unless, of course, there are personal ties to Argentina.

I agree. I hope you are not implying that I'm denigrating life here.