Disappearing Expats? Or Is Everyone Happier?

[TruchoTango]

After a cumulative total of about 5 years in BA, I left 3 months ago.

As an economist, it is my opinion that the value proposition of BA has broken down. Five years ago, in Buenos Aires, you got all sorts of wonderful benefits at a great price. Today, many of those benefits are gone and the ones that remain carry prices that are equivalent to Los Angeles.

In other words, today, you get all the hassles and unpleasantness of BA and your cost of living is about the same as any moderately expensive American city. Plus, given the strength of the peso and the unstoppable inflation, the future for dollar-spenders does not look bright.

I recently bought new crossfit shoes on Amazon. I had 3 pairs delivered - sizes 8.5, 9 and 9.5. They arrived same day - I ordered them by 8am and they came to my house at 5pm. I tried them all on. The 9s fit and the other two pair did not. I reboxed the other two pair. On my way home from the gym, I stopped by the UPS store with the two unwanted pair. The clerk slapped labels on the two unwanted pair, charged me a dollar and said "Thank you." That entire process took 60 seconds.

Did I mention that the pair I kept were last year's model? So they were 50% off, or $60.

I explain to friends that to buy a pair of crossfit shoes in BA would have taken me 3 days. They ask me to explain. I say, "I can't. It just does."

I don't mean that in a gloating way. I loved BA. But as I constantly evaluated my life choices, after much denial and discomfort, I had to admit to myself that BA did not make sense for me anymore. It was a painful decision and I miss much about BA. I admire all those who have stayed. I wish everyone the best and I hope that BA becomes a more livable situation in the near future. It is a wonderful place.

I don't mean that in a gloating way. I was sad to leave BA. I loved it there. But I am constantly evaluating my life choices and after considerable denial and discomfort, I had to admit to myself that it did not make sense for me anymore. This was unfortunate. I admire all those who have stayed and I wish everyone the best. I hope the situation improves.

In my opinion, the productivity gap between the developed world and Argentina is increasing daily. The developed world steams ahead with advancements while Argentina takes baby steps.

I am currently living at about the same cost as my life in BA, but all my food is organic, I get shoes delivered same day and the subway runs predictably every day.

 

[Redbeanz]

Many of the mid 2000's crop of kids who were so populous didnt really "work"- they skated, from cheap place to cheap place, prague to sayulita to phuket to berlin squats to detroit to the lower east side to new orleans, maybe pulling a few shifts in the black economy, getting money from home, and so on.

I know at least a half dozen people, just off the top of my head, like me- they are in Buenos Aires because they like it, and its cheaper than their home country cost of living. They all make their living from a mix of sources, sometimes in argentina, mostly not. They are all in it for the long haul- most of them I have known since 2007 or so. They are "expats" but they are not like the lovesick puppies who follow a pretty face here because they fell in love without the slightest idea of their destination. Instead, they are older adults who have travelled all over the globe, and CHOSE Buenos Aires.

Because you mentioned New Orleans, where we are from, I felt like resurfacing after a couple of years of not posting on this particular Argentina expats forum. We first came in 2005 and, like you, spend part of each year here and part in various work locations in North America. When I first started reading threads on this forum, they very often contained practical information helpful to living here. Other posts gave rise, as far as tolerated, to larger ideas that resembled conversations that would take place among friends gathered in person. These drew me in and I began participating. Now there is less of this kind of discussion, and more one-upsmanship and put downs. I know that world events of the past year have made incivility more socially accepted, but people don't always flock to it.

So yes, I agree with Ries that there are a lot of us still in Buenos Aires, many just no longer engaging on this platform, but rather, through PM's, other platforms, and personal contact.

And yes, we are here because we love this city. Unique in the world.

 

[jeff1234]

After a cumulative total of about 5 years in BA, I left 3 months ago.

As an economist, it is my opinion that the value proposition of BA has broken down. Five years ago, in Buenos Aires, you got all sorts of wonderful benefits at a great price. Today, many of those benefits are gone and the ones that remain carry prices that are equivalent to Los Angeles.

In other words, today, you get all the hassles and unpleasantness of BA and your cost of living is about the same as any moderately expensive American city. Plus, given the strength of the peso and the unstoppable inflation, the future for dollar-spenders does not look bright.

I recently bought new crossfit shoes on Amazon. I had 3 pairs delivered - sizes 8.5, 9 and 9.5. They arrived same day - I ordered them by 8am and they came to my house at 5pm. I tried them all on. The 9s fit and the other two pair did not. I reboxed the other two pair. On my way home from the gym, I stopped by the UPS store with the two unwanted pair. The clerk slapped labels on the two unwanted pair, charged me a dollar and said "Thank you." That entire process took 60 seconds.

Did I mention that the pair I kept were last year's model? So they were 50% off, or $60.

I explain to friends that to buy a pair of crossfit shoes in BA would have taken me 3 days. They ask me to explain. I say, "I can't. It just does."

I don't mean that in a gloating way. I loved BA. But as I constantly evaluated my life choices, after much denial and discomfort, I had to admit to myself that BA did not make sense for me anymore. It was a painful decision and I miss much about BA. I admire all those who have stayed. I wish everyone the best and I hope that BA becomes a more livable situation in the near future. It is a wonderful place.

I don't mean that in a gloating way. I was sad to leave BA. I loved it there. But I am constantly evaluating my life choices and after considerable denial and discomfort, I had to admit to myself that it did not make sense for me anymore. This was unfortunate. I admire all those who have stayed and I wish everyone the best. I hope the situation improves.

In my opinion, the productivity gap between the developed world and Argentina is increasing daily. The developed world steams ahead with advancements while Argentina takes baby steps.

I am currently living at about the same cost as my life in BA, but all my food is organic, I get shoes delivered same day and the subway runs predictably every day.

Your description sounds like what I'd expect if I returned to the US. Plus I'm sure there are many more conveniences, food choices, traffic law enforcement, recreational choices that make life more comfortable in the USA.

But as an older person I have to give a lot of weight to the cost and quality of health care? And also a tranquility factor. Before I came here I lived in Florida where surprisingly there was a certain ambient stress to daily life, even in tranquil villages along the coast. People seemed ready to fight about almost anything. My cousin who was dying of cancer was put on trial at his condo community for picking up his golf ball when he left mid-round.

The doctors, even the veterinarians worked under great pressure and were often unpleasant and incompetent. One of my primary care doctors (via Humana Health Insurance) argued with me and refused to believe that tylenol is not an anti-inflammatory. And he wasn't the biggest idiot among the doctors there.

Like a lot of expats I'm tied to Arg through my wife, her family and career. But I'd like to hear your comments about these thoughts.

By the way, Mercado Libre has improved greatly since I came her 5 years ago. It's not Amazon but they I have gotten computer power cords and even rugs delivered in a couple of days now and at pretty good prices.

 

[TomAtAlki]

T & I live here most of the year and go back to Seattle for the beautiful summers and boating. So, I am not impacted by missing and expensive products here, I bring back the things that I need and want. We don't work here, we don't work, we are living on past work and investments.
However we love living here, we love that are friends have time to spend with us, we love the dinner parties and easy invitations that go between us. We love that we don't need or want to own a car. We love walking miles everyday, going into our favorite local shops to buy veggies, chicken, whatever and don't n need to go into a supermarket. It is a lifestyle that we have chosen. Of course none of this would have worked when we needed to make money, educate our kids, etc. We're done with that and BsAs let's us have a tranquil lifestyle in a big fabulous city with music, art, good restaurants, parks, lots of friends.......
I'm glad Redbeanz decided to participate in this discussion, and by the way it's in my opinion the 1st decent discussion in years.
Nancy

 

[London2Baires]

Several good members were kicked off, people I know personally, while people with Ferraris post freely.

I have been a part of this forum since 2009, and though I occasionally lurk every now and then, I stopped posting a while ago. There's far too much petty squabbling amongst certain members of the forum (y'all know who I'm referring to).

Threads that should be purposeful and to the point quickly go awry because we can't play nicely and stay on topic. While I still appreciate the forum, it got old a while ago. Just my two cents.

THIS

I also used to be a contributor here but stopped for the reasons cited above.

The expat community is actually thriving and has increased massively in other 'un namable' virtual spaces.

That's what happens when the madmen take over the asylum.

Good luck to you all.

 

[semigoodlookin]

cant say I agree with this- the "real reason" I live in Buenos Aires is because I love it. And in terms of prices/crime/liveability it beats the West Coast cities I have lived in- Seattle is far worse on just about every point, and you forgot horrendous traffic, inflation (rent inflation in Seattle beats Buenos Aires, and vacancy rates are so low that even finding an overpriced places is difficult)
Everyone "worries" about costs, but, for many of us who also live in the USA, its still cheaper and a better standard of living in Buenos Aires.
And everyone makes decisions on how to spend their money based on their own lifestyles, for instance, I do not find Buenos Aires to be particularly luxurious- but I dont spend money on fancy wine, or rolexes, or mercedes benz cars- instead, I take the collectivo and go to free concerts and eat porcions of fuggazeta with faina.

I work both in the US and in argentina, but I get paid in dollars.
the assumption that all expats work in the local economy is not a very provable one- if you look at just the people who comment here regularly, I would guess maybe a quarter of them work in the argentine job market.
Some are retired- quite a few, actually, who post here get checks in the mail from their home countries.
Some moved here to be with spouses who work here and support them.
Some work online, Some travel from here, some work on jobs that allow them to be here part time, like me.
Many of the mid 2000's crop of kids who were so populous didnt really "work"- they skated, from cheap place to cheap place, prague to sayulita to phuket to berlin squats to detroit to the lower east side to new orleans, maybe pulling a few shifts in the black economy, getting money from home, and so on.

I know at least a half dozen people, just off the top of my head, like me- they are in Buenos Aires because they like it, and its cheaper than their home country cost of living. They all make their living from a mix of sources, sometimes in argentina, mostly not. They are all in it for the long haul- most of them I have known since 2007 or so. They are "expats" but they are not like the lovesick puppies who follow a pretty face here because they fell in love without the slightest idea of their destination. Instead, they are older adults who have travelled all over the globe, and CHOSE Buenos Aires.

If we dont count in your book, too bad- we are here, have been here, and will be here.

I also know a fair amount of immigrants, expats if you will, to BA, who DO work here- and none post on this blog. They are too busy working to complain about the lack of marmite.
They run record labels, write books, make art, run restaurants, design and sell clothing, furniture, and architecture, play in bands, and many other things- in fact, I know far more of those expats than the type that mostly posts here. They have assimilated, hired employees, and thrive here, but they are absolutely expats, in the sense that they are from somewhere else, and, mostly still retain foreign citizenship.

Again, they CHOSE Argentina.

Of course there are people here who love it and are here for that. However, you know a dozen people here because they love it, what does that mean? Why is that important. I know about 20 who left because of the cost, does that mean I win?

It is certainly not incorrect to say many people are locked here only because of a family or relationship committment. I am one of them and know many more like that. Not everyone comes from a comparable city to say it is still cheaper here. I cam from Cardiff, a regional small city and it is cheaper that BA in every aspect I can think of apart from maybe energy costs. Outside of London, I can't think of many places in the UK more expensive than here, and without many of the hassles too. While economy may not be to blame for a clear expat exodus, it has certainly played a part. Let's not forget the crime and general way of life here too.

You may love it, and many more too. But that does not mean other people's reasons for leaving are not legitimate. Inflation in Argentina is whatever crazy number it is this month, it is demonstrably expensive here.

 

[semigoodlookin]

After a cumulative total of about 5 years in BA, I left 3 months ago.

As an economist, it is my opinion that the value proposition of BA has broken down. Five years ago, in Buenos Aires, you got all sorts of wonderful benefits at a great price. Today, many of those benefits are gone and the ones that remain carry prices that are equivalent to Los Angeles.

In other words, today, you get all the hassles and unpleasantness of BA and your cost of living is about the same as any moderately expensive American city. Plus, given the strength of the peso and the unstoppable inflation, the future for dollar-spenders does not look bright.

I recently bought new crossfit shoes on Amazon. I had 3 pairs delivered - sizes 8.5, 9 and 9.5. They arrived same day - I ordered them by 8am and they came to my house at 5pm. I tried them all on. The 9s fit and the other two pair did not. I reboxed the other two pair. On my way home from the gym, I stopped by the UPS store with the two unwanted pair. The clerk slapped labels on the two unwanted pair, charged me a dollar and said "Thank you." That entire process took 60 seconds.

Did I mention that the pair I kept were last year's model? So they were 50% off, or $60.

I explain to friends that to buy a pair of crossfit shoes in BA would have taken me 3 days. They ask me to explain. I say, "I can't. It just does."

I don't mean that in a gloating way. I loved BA. But as I constantly evaluated my life choices, after much denial and discomfort, I had to admit to myself that BA did not make sense for me anymore. It was a painful decision and I miss much about BA. I admire all those who have stayed. I wish everyone the best and I hope that BA becomes a more livable situation in the near future. It is a wonderful place.

I don't mean that in a gloating way. I was sad to leave BA. I loved it there. But I am constantly evaluating my life choices and after considerable denial and discomfort, I had to admit to myself that it did not make sense for me anymore. This was unfortunate. I admire all those who have stayed and I wish everyone the best. I hope the situation improves.

In my opinion, the productivity gap between the developed world and Argentina is increasing daily. The developed world steams ahead with advancements while Argentina takes baby steps.

I am currently living at about the same cost as my life in BA, but all my food is organic, I get shoes delivered same day and the subway runs predictably every day.

Are you in LA or somewhere else? There are some on this thread who would have us believe living in the US is not cheaper, easier, more efficient, safer. I find that an interesting opinion because everyone I know (here and off the forum) who have moved on from BA say they style of living has improved in almost every aspect (although all admit to missing the city). That ranges from places in Europe and the US. Seattle must be a shitty place.

 

[Girino]

Quality of life involves certain very subjective parameters, so it is understandable that some of us still like living here, despite the rising costs.
In my case -- and here I am just speaking personally -- to have within a walking distance many ethnic places, a thriving expat community, nice weather, and a less complicated civic life I would need to move to another capital of the world in a few countries. Within Europe, I could name only Barcelona, and it doesn't look as cheap if you want to live downtown. Now if we want to take into account any European place Vs. BsAs, sure there are cheaper places, but the offer and lifestyle are VERY different.

A certain variety is achieved in Europe only in big cities (Berlin, London, Barcelona, Paris to name some) and these are quite expensive. Living in the suburbs of said cities is less expensive but you wouldn't live daily in the kind of environment I am seeking to live in at this stage of my life. If I had children to worry about, then it would be a different story.

There is also the human factor that weighs a lot in our choice to live here. Grumpy and stressed people no longer have my admiration as 'hard workers'. I'd rather live my life AND work to support myself, but the carrot-stick combo, the false promises, the annihilation of personal life in name of the greater good (and more money... though my time to get it never seemed to arrive) no longer work with me.

I'd rather live a simpler life, where I can have time to think about myself, express myself, try different things, be curious, give and get, etc.
People from my past life do not understand this and think I am broken. Indeed!

 

[syngirl]

Everything comes and goes in and out of fashion. Perhaps forums like this one are going through that. The admin has been absent it seems, there certainly don't seem to have been many efforts to keep the forum active and alive, the look hasn't updated in years, which isn't necessary for most of the forum, but it does add to the forum seeming to be stuck in a certain space and time.

I have over 2500 posts since joining in 2005. 12 years, and I can almost guarantee that most were prior to 2010 -- ie I have probably posted max once a month in the last two years, not sure, I can't see statistics.

I do think the advantage of other platforms is that, for the most part, when posting under your own name, people tend to be kinder. I participate more in a certain group than I do here, I contribute there almost daily, but in terms of participation in real life, it is exactly the same, ie I never go to the meetups, I never really have. Perhaps in the first six months or so. However, I have received good quality information here, and I have tried to contribute quality info.

It may just come down to ease of use these days as well. People like to access things on their phones. I haven't looked at this site on my phone in a good couple of years, I bet you if it were an app, more people would use it on that platform. People are already accessing their social media online on their phones, humans are lazy, why go to a website on your phone when you can go to an app. Of course, this is a small scale project compared to those other options, so really I cannot blame the admin for not wanting to invest. I suspect this has become more of a pet project that he just maintains on a server.

As to expats coming, going, leaving, staying. I know a lot of expats that have been here for 10+ years. But there is a whole new generation of them that are as young as I was when I first came. I just wrote a Spanish exam on the weekend and there were a tonne of bright young things writing their A1-B1 levels while there were 6 of us oldies writing the C2 (ok, 3 oldies and 3 that had arrived weeks to months ago).

Places go in and out of fashion for expats, as someone else said, Portugal is the hot property right now.

TL;DR - to me it is a matter of convenience. I use my phone for everything and I have quick access and better platforms on my phone. If admin did an overhaul though, would it even be worthwhile?

 

[Rich One]

To make it short ... The end of the Blue Dollar marks a before and After. B.D.B and A.D.B

Getting a 40 % or more exchange advantage with the Blue Dollar was a PLUS.

Those who live on a fixed peso/dollar income, have experienced a cut in income of 71,2 % since Macri came to power in Dec 2015 . This year inflation will again exceed 23 % . So where do they go from here , people can expect at least 20 % inflation again in 2018...!

With spiraling increases in rentals, health care, schooling, gas , supermarket etc.. No to mention of going out, for filet mignon only chopped meat...! Raising children...?? imposible. Need a miracle like multiplication of the loaves and fish.

https://translate.go...ra/&prev=search



The report Economic Perspectives of the International Monetary Fund released on Tuesday in Washington placed Argentina in seventh place among the most inflationary economies in the world. The agency assessed that Argentina will end 2017 with cumulative inflation of 22.3% , second only to Venezuela (1133%), South Sudan (111.4%), Congo (50%), Libya (35.1%), Egypt (29.8%) and Angola (23.4%).

Benvindo​